Islam The Quran and reading its interpretation.

Hi all,

Quran 9 needs to be read in context. At the time it was written Muhammad ordered the expulsion of all the remaining pagans in Mecca. He gave a 4 month period for all Pagans to leave Mecca. He did this on compassionate grounds, stating the 4 month period was given to allow those who would not forsake paganism to leave Mecca. He did however then command the killing of any Pagan who remained. Stating the "Pagans are unclean" ... and added the verse to the Quran, "slay the Pagans where ever you find them". The verse does not mean slay any Pagan in the world rather it was intended for the Pagans who remained in Mecca.

The following verse about Fighting against the Jews and Christians, was commanded due to Muhammad's men complaining that they would now not be able to get an income by raiding Pagans. So Muhummad ordered the tax on Jews and Christians, and instigated fighting against them, stating that Allah could enrich his men as he willed.

Any Jew or Christian who paid the tax was spared, and treated kindly. I would assume any one who did not pay was killed, as muhammad commanded his men to "fight". Although there was no specific war after this time, or recorded killing, as Muhammad died shortly after.

The reason for targeting Jews and Christians to finance his men is up for debate. It may well have been due to his previous encounters with them, or it may have been purely a result of his men asking for cash, and needing to find a suitable target.

FutureAndAHope said:

Hi all,

Quran 9 needs to be read in context. At the time it was written Muhammad ordered the expulsion of all the remaining pagans in Mecca. He gave a 4 month period for all Pagans to leave Mecca. He did this on compassionate grounds, stating the 4 month period was given to allow those who would not forsake paganism to leave Mecca. He did however then command the killing of any Pagan who remained. Stating the "Pagans are unclean" ... and added the verse to the Quran, "slay the Pagans where ever you find them". The verse does not mean slay any Pagan in the world rather it was intended for the Pagans who remained in Mecca.

The following verse about Fighting against the Jews and Christians, was commanded due to Muhammad's men complaining that they would now not be able to get an income by raiding Pagans. So Muhummad ordered the tax on Jews and Christians, and instigated fighting against them, stating that Allah could enrich his men as he willed.

Any Jew or Christian who paid the tax was spared, and treated kindly. I would assume any one who did not pay was killed, as muhammad commanded his men to "fight". Although there was no specific war after this time, or recorded killing, as Muhammad died shortly after.

The reason for targeting Jews and Christians to finance his men is up for debate. It may well have been due to his previous encounters with them, or it may have been purely a result of his men asking for cash, and needing to find a suitable target.

Click to expand...

Hi
Yes, context is very important. Also, the history of the revelation of the Surah 9 is very important as well.
I need to state a fact that Surah 9 was not revealed in pieces but in one time all in all. So, It's not true that due to something prophet Mohamed added something to Quran.
I know you don't believe in Quran as a revelation from the Almighty but the fact is Surah 9 was revealed all in all in one time.

As you said it doesn't mean "kill" all pagan all over the history and all over the world. It was for people of Maka. Pagans of Maka have killed, tortured, and take money and properties of Muslims before. It's a kind of return action against these people Pagans of Maka. Also, till date, non-Muslims are not allowed to get in Maka.

Regarding the fight and Jezia against people of the book (Jews and Christians). It's a law for Muslims to fight against these people as well. In the Islamic war law, any kingdom or city has 2 choices: either to be under the Islamic Caliph authority, in this case they they pay Jezia. It's for all people in that city. they become part of the Caliphate and have all rights to leave in peace.
The second option is to fight. According to the Islamic war law, only fighters can be fought/killed. Any other civilian is saved.

The option of Jews and Christians individuals not to pay tax is not there. The agreement is made by authority. It never happened that someone reject to pay Jezia, accordingly noone was killed because he rejected to pay Jezia.
By the way, Jezia was much less than Zakat 2.5% of savings.

Regards

Limo said:

Hi
Yes, context is very important. Also, the history of the revelation of the Surah 9 is very important as well.
I need to state a fact that Surah 9 was not revealed in pieces but in one time all in all. So, It's not true that due to something prophet Mohamed added something to Quran.
I know you don't believe in Quran as a revelation from the Almighty but the fact is Surah 9 was revealed all in all in one time.

Click to expand...

Is this something that all modern Muslims believe? Because it does not seem to be supported by history. The Biography by Ibn Ishaq as an example shows that Muhammad progressive revealed the Quran. By that I mean that Quran 9 was added in whole at one point in time, to respond to what was happening at the time. I don't mean he added a single verse to the existing Quran.

Limo said:

The second option is to fight. According to the Islamic war law, only fighters can be fought/killed. Any other civilian is saved.

Click to expand...

Hi - do you have some quotes for this, I just have not read it yet, in my readings.

FutureAndAHope said:

Is this something that all modern Muslims believe? Because it does not seem to be supported by history. The Biography by Ibn Ishaq as an example shows that Muhammad progressive revealed the Quran. By that I mean that Quran 9 was added in whole at one point in time, to respond to what was happening at the time. I don't mean he added a single verse to the existing Quran.

Click to expand...

True Qur'an was revealed in chunks according to situation.
Sometimes one surah is revealed partially in different ocations
Surah 9 is revealed in one time in one occasion

FutureAndAHope said:

Hi - do you have some quotes for this, I just have not read it yet, in my readings.

Click to expand...

The most important of these were summarized by Muhammad's companion and first Caliph, Abu Bakr, in the form of ten rules for the Muslim army:

O people! I charge you with ten rules; learn them well!

Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

Hi Limo
In thread #2 you said

Limo said:

It's not the interpretation it's about the context.
If you want to understand a book, you can't cut peaces out of context and ask questions.
You need to know about language, environment, circumstances, history to understand the context of a statement.

Click to expand...

If this is your true view why do you not apply it. I refer to your reply to my question your said

Limo said:

Now look to what is called Christinity that is invented by Paul and Paul who decided the Laws, He preached among the gentiles (El-Messiah didn't), He stopped circumspection, stopped Mosa's Law, stopped scarifying in the Holy of Helios, a few other people continued the trip of the new religion by adding Crucifixion, resurrection, Son of God, Trinity, church,,, and they've adapted/changed the books accordingly.

Click to expand...

If you expect us to apply this rule to the quran then surly for the sake of truth and understanding you should apply this to the Bible and not try to infer that Paul invented his own religion, stopped sacrifices of mythical Greek gods, ect as you have done.

Alternatively this can only been seen as your endeavour to create chaos and strife and not seek truth understanding and or context of the christian faith. Please understand as a Christian my (our) passage into paradise is secure in Christ Jesus, we do not rely on good works and a balance of scales as dose the faith of Islam. The God of the Bible is trust worthy and will keep his covenant and promise of salvation. Unlike the god of the Quran, Allah who reserves the right to change his mind on any matter.

You have invited us to discuss contradictions or flaws in the quran. Here are some thta come to mind:-
Creation: Surah 41:9-12 say eight days, while Surahs 7:54 & 32:4 claim six.
Satan: Surah 38:9-12 claim Satan is an angel while surah 18:20 say he is a Jinns (Spirit)
How was the quran revealed? Surahs 6:19 and 145 claims it is by inspiration while Surah 2:97 says it was handed down by archangel Gabriel.
Here is my favorite
Can Allah words be changed? 10:64 and 6:34,115 say they can not but we read in surah 2:106 that Allah cancel words and then replaces them with better ones.
Are Christians Saved or Lost? according to Surah 2:62 we can be assured of our place in Paradise while surah 3:85 says we are lost.

The language of all of the above is clear, with regard to environment,circumstances, history it is irrelevant as they are statements of fact. thus await your reply as to an explanation of context.

Regards Doug

Hi Doug,
I can't ignore context. history, environment of any statement in any book.
I apply this in all my knowledge.

Regarding Paul, I'll respond in the other thread

Regarding allegations about contradictions in Quran, Please create a new thread and I'll answer all
Regards