The Purpose Driven Life

BelovedSonofRock · Nov 3, 2005

humblemuslim said:
Possibly. If you think about it life doesn't need a purpose, but each and every person gives it purpose by creating and fulfilling goals. So from a fundamental sense each and every person creates their own purpose. But another question would be whether life has a purpose common to all outside personal goals. This is where proof is going to be lacking and religion steps in to give answers to questions which cannot be sufficently proven to date.

I see a lot of agreement between you and I on this point.

Life doesn't have a purpose unless on takes religious/spiritual view.

humblemuslim said:
The best I can do to respond to your questions may not be satisfactory, but I'll attempt my best none-the-less.

First of all, yes God is supposed to be perfect/complete and doesn't need us as shown in the following verses:

051.057
YUSUFALI: No Sustenance do I require of them, nor do I require that they should feed Me.
PICKTHAL: I seek no livelihood from them, nor do I ask that they should feed Me.
SHAKIR: I do not desire from them any sustenance and I do not desire that they should feed Me.

"Them" is referring to Jinn and Humankind as noted in the verse before this one, which I already cited in an earlier post.

051.058
YUSUFALI: For Allah is He Who gives (all) Sustenance,- Lord of Power,- Steadfast (for ever).
PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah! He it is that giveth livelihood, the Lord of unbreakable might.
SHAKIR: Surely Allah is the Bestower of sustenance, the Lord of Power, the Strong.

002.255YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Since this verse is somewhat larger than the others I'll just cite one translation. If you wish to view others here is a link to the verse in 3 translations: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.255

Ah, this explain what YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL and SHAKIR are.

humblemuslem said:
Your other two questions are very similar so I'll respond to them together:

These two questions are somewhat hard to answer, since God didn't exactly spell out the answers. At least not directly. First of all, Islam holds that God doesn't NEED us, therefore God doesn't NEED worship from us. However, Islam also holds God WANTS us to worship him, that's the universal purpose of life as cited by the Qur'an. So it is natural to wonder why God would demand something God doesn't need. Well one natural response would be the following:

What if humans need worship? Is it not possible worship isn't for God, but for humans instead? Just a thought. Maybe worship is in some way healthy for our being or simply good for us. This response came to me because of the following verse (There are other similar verses):

003.108YUSUFALI: These are the Signs of Allah: We rehearse them to thee in Truth: And Allah means no injustice to any of His creatures.
PICKTHAL: These are revelations of Allah. We recite them unto thee in truth. Allah willeth no injustice to (His) creatures.
SHAKIR: These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth, and Allah does not desire any injustice to the creatures.

God created us with a need to worship. You're the first person I've heard saying that. It's a good thought and I've been thinking about it since you posted it.

If we are wired for the need to worship how do we know what we are worshipping is what we are suppose to worship? And there lies a weakness. We have one group saying "Our revelation is correct!" We have another saying, "No, our revelation is correct." And we have yet another saying, "All revelations are but a shadow of what is correct."

What standard can be used to determine which revelation is the correct revelation? Of course, this standard would have to be independent of all revelations.

FreezBee · Nov 3, 2005

BelovedSonofRock said:
.... If God created humans with a purpose then life has a purpose. The answer would then be "Life has purpose because God gave it a purpose."

Well, if that is the answer then one could move on to:

What is the purpose of life?

How can one know what is the purpose of life?

What is the general/universal purpose for human life?

What is an individual person's purpose of life?

How can one know what are the general and personal purposes of human life?

How can one know if they are doing their personal purpose?

What happens if one is not doing their personal purpose?

Does one even have a choice of doing or not doing the general and/or personal purpose of life?

Of course, one could be stubborn and ask, "Why did God give life a purpose?"

If God created humans with a purpose, then life does not necessarily have a purpose. Creating humans with a purpose (for creating humans) is not necessarily the same giving life a purpose - it could mean the same, but does not necessarily do so.

I suppose a purpose is something to be fullfilled, but God might have fullfilled his purpose by creating humans, which does not entail that human life has a purpose from that point on - this may be left to the humans themselves, maybe. And, yes, each single of us might be created with a special divine purpose that we have to fullfil - spending all our life just figuring out which weird purpose is ours. And, yes God might just have created humans to have the purpose of worshipping God (whatever that happens to mean).

So, again: please state your definition of purpose.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: I am a programmer, and I "create" program with the purpose of earning money, but that purpose does not transfer to my programs: they don't earn money for me, while running.

Therefore, it is perfectly logical for God to have created humans with a purpose without that purpose being transferred to the lives of humans.

Am I making myself clear now?

cheers

- FreezBee

elman · Nov 3, 2005

BelovedSonofRock said:
The question I asked was why does life need a purpose. Perhaps I asked an unanswerable question.

You gave a what the purpose is...that we were created to worship God. Like a fish I'm going to bite on this hook.

Why would God want or need us to worship Him? God is suppose to be perfect and complete. Is God lacking something that He needed to create us to worship Him? What does He get from our worship?

Though I'm very interested in hearing the Muslim veiw on this other theists can also share their views.

Life needs a purpose if we are to be happy. To have no reason to live is state of depression. God is love. He created us with the ability to love Him back and each other. If we do we fulfill our purpose. For a Loving Being to create another being with the ability to return love is not an indication of imperfection, nor does it show lacking or need. Being loving means one wants someone to love and be loved in return.

FreezBee · Nov 3, 2005

elman said:
Life needs a purpose if we are to be happy. To have no reason to live is state of depression. God is love. He created us with the ability to love Him back and each other.

Now we're getting somewhere

I like your conditional: if we are to be happy. There is no innate purpose, purposes are conditional.

cheers

- FreezBee

elman · Nov 3, 2005

FreezBee said:
Now we're getting somewhere

I like your conditional: if we are to be happy. There is no innate purpose, purposes are conditional.

cheers

- FreezBee

I think we exist for the purpose being loving. We are able to chose to be unloving which goes against the purpose for our being here. I think the purpose is innate. The conditional part is if we chose to do what we were created to do.

BelovedSonofRock · Nov 3, 2005

FreezBee said:
If God created humans with a purpose, then life does not necessarily have a purpose. Creating humans with a purpose (for creating humans) is not necessarily the same giving life a purpose - it could mean the same, but does not necessarily do so.

I still don't follow this thought....Oh!!!! Are you saying "God purposely created humans"? For I'm reading it that the word purpose is as a noun assigned to the word human.

FreezBee said:
I suppose a purpose is something to be fullfilled, but God might have fullfilled his purpose by creating humans,

Ooh. God has a purpose?

Where did God get his purpose?
Who/what give God his purpose?
What is God's purpose?
If God was assigned a purpose does that mean there is something greater than God?
If God came up with his own purpose, what standard did he use?

FreezBee said:
So, again: please state your definition of purpose.

I don't have a definition. I suppose purpose could mean direction, meaning, duty, task, fate.

FreezBee said:
I am a programmer, and I "create" program with the purpose of earning money, but that purpose does not transfer to my programs: they don't earn money for me, while running.

You better rethink this example.

You create programs for the purpose of earning money. Your programs have a purpose and they must complete the purpose or else you don't get money. Though your purpose for creating the programs is not the same purpose assigned to the programs, your programs have a purpose.

Computer Associates created BrightStor ACRserve to earn money. ACRserve's purpose is to efficiently backup data for storage and recovery. I just purchased 3 copies of the program because of its purpose. I'm not concerned about Computer Associates purpose for creating the program.

Therefore, if it is perfectly logical for God to have purposely created humans, what was/is that purpose?

BelovedSonofRock · Nov 3, 2005

elman said:
Life needs a purpose if we are to be happy.

So life has a purpose so that we are happy.

elman said:
To have no reason to live is state of depression.

I see no reason for life and I see no reason for my life and I'm happy.

elman said:
God is love.

What does that really mean? What evidence supports that statement.

elman said:
He created us with the ability to love Him back and each other. If we do we fulfill our purpose. For a Loving Being to create another being with the ability to return love is not an indication of imperfection, nor does it show lacking or need. Being loving means one wants someone to love and be loved in return.

You anticipated my question. Good!

I want to think on your love comment, but doesn't the state of "want" the result of lack or need? You said that God is love, doesn't that mean that God needs/wants an object to love? God create everything so that He has an object to love?

FreezBee · Nov 4, 2005

BelovedSonofRock said:
I still don't follow this thought....Oh!!!! Are you saying "God purposely created humans"? For I'm reading it that the word purpose is as a noun assigned to the word human.
Ooh. God has a purpose?

Yes, I was aware that "created humans with a purpose" could be interpreted as if the purpose was within the humans - a different thing than that God had some purpose for creating humans. Ok, sorry about that!

BelovedSonofRock said:
Where did God get his purpose?

Who/what give God his purpose?

What is God's purpose?

If God was assigned a purpose does that mean there is something greater than God?

If God came up with his own purpose, what standard did he use?

Now you make me confused I am only looking for a definition of the word "purpose" in order to answer your question, whether you have asked an unaswerable question - believe me

BelovedSonofRock said:
I don't have a definition. I suppose purpose could mean direction, meaning, duty, task, fate.

If you do not have a definition of "purpose", you have asked an unanswerable question, because we don't even know the question you have asked

BelovedSonofRock said:
You better rethink this example.

You create programs for the purpose of earning money. Your programs have a purpose and they must complete the purpose or else you don't get money. Though your purpose for creating the programs is not the same purpose assigned to the programs, your programs have a purpose.

Computer Associates created BrightStor ACRserve to earn money. ACRserve's purpose is to efficiently backup data for storage and recovery. I just purchased 3 copies of the program because of its purpose. I'm not concerned about Computer Associates purpose for creating the program.

The way I read you here, we appear to agree, so why do I need to rethink my example? My purpose for creating programs does not transfer to my programs, although the programs must serve some purpose for someone to bother to buy them. Yes, but the point of my example was to give an example of an untransferrable purpose, and you seem to admit that I did - the way I read you. that is.

BelovedSonofRock said:
Therefore, if it is perfectly logical for God to have purposely created humans, what was/is that purpose?

Ask God! Or I might say: it's a private matter of God's

If you want an official theological answer (which I admit that I am not qualified to give), then according to Genesis 2 (I dare suppose that you are familiar with the Bible?) - according to that God created humans to have someone to look after the Garden of Eden - this only moves the problem; why did God create the Garden of Eden?

Anyway, you appear to want to know, whether life needs a purpose. As long as we do not know, what you mean by "purpose", we cannot answer.

cheers

- FreezBee

elman · Nov 4, 2005

BelovedSonofRock said:
So life has a purpose so that we are happy.

I see no reason for life and I see no reason for my life and I'm happy.

What does that really mean? What evidence supports that statement.

You anticipated my question. Good!

I want to think on your love comment, but doesn't the state of "want" the result of lack or need? You said that God is love, doesn't that mean that God needs/wants an object to love? God create everything so that He has an object to love?

Happiness is not achieved by direct assult. It is always the bank shot or by product of helping or loving others. I question your being able to be happy if you have no reason to live, but you know more about your life than I do. Want in this context is not a state of lack or need, but the natural desire of being loving. God's being loving implies something apart from Him to love. It is not difficult to see the value in love being returned.

pepe1 · Nov 4, 2005

what pupose do you think death has?

elman · Nov 4, 2005

pepe1 said:
what pupose do you think death has?

It is part of being mortal. Other than that I don't know that it has a purpose.

BelovedSonofRock · Nov 4, 2005

FreezBee said:
If you do not have a definition of "purpose", you have asked an unanswerable question, because we don't even know the question you have asked.

Agree, I asked an unanswerable question.

If you want an official theological answer (which I admit that I am not qualified to give), then according to Genesis 2 (I dare suppose that you are familiar with the Bible?) - according to that God created humans to have someone to look after the Garden of Eden - this only moves the problem; why did God create the Garden of Eden?

I'm 44 years old. I use to be a Charismatic/Fundamentalist (Yes, I know that they are two diifferent groups but they have so much in common.) I've read straight through the Hebrew Bible 3 times and the Chrisitian Testament 5 times before I graduated from high school (not that that means much). I also spent a large amount of time studying creationism for I saw creationism as a key in accepting the Bible literally and End-Times theology. I was also told by my spiritual leaders that Life has purpose and that I had a purpose.

In college I got involved in an Assembly of God church and Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship. In IV I was small group leader and eventually I became the chapter president. I also had to take a class on evolution. In that class I discovered that everything I was told about evolution by the creationists was wrong. I was deceived and lied to. And worse, I also discovered that I accepted things without questioning them. I started questioning and in 1985 my faith fell apart.

For 20 years I thought and contemplated about my faith, Christianity and other religions. I moved from being a Fundamentalist to a moderate to a liberal. Finally, I looked at what remained of my Christian faith, carefully examined each piece and discarded it. This July, I came to the conclusion that I'm an atheist.

Though I now consider myself an atheist I still question about things and I even question my atheism. I was listening to a conversation about the development of the universe. A person was talking about an expanding/contracting universe when a theist asked "What is the purpose of that? It seems so pointless." The response was that there is no purpose or point to it. The theist couldn't accept that answer for he said that life has a purpose.

That statement reminded me of The Purpose Driven Life which I read last year and how I remarked that the author assumed that life has a purpose. I then decided that I wanted to hear people's thoughts on this which led me to this site.

It appears that I have asked an unanswerable question. I'm okay with that.

FreezBee · Nov 5, 2005

BelovedSonofRock said:
I'm 44 years old. I use to be a Charismatic/Fundamentalist (Yes, I know that they are two diifferent groups but they have so much in common.) I've read straight through the Hebrew Bible 3 times and the Chrisitian Testament 5 times before I graduated from high school (not that that means much). I also spent a large amount of time studying creationism for I saw creationism as a key in accepting the Bible literally and End-Times theology. I was also told by my spiritual leaders that Life has purpose and that I had a purpose.

In college I got involved in an Assembly of God church and Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship. In IV I was small group leader and eventually I became the chapter president. I also had to take a class on evolution. In that class I discovered that everything I was told about evolution by the creationists was wrong. I was deceived and lied to. And worse, I also discovered that I accepted things without questioning them. I started questioning and in 1985 my faith fell apart.

For 20 years I thought and contemplated about my faith, Christianity and other religions. I moved from being a Fundamentalist to a moderate to a liberal. Finally, I looked at what remained of my Christian faith, carefully examined each piece and discarded it. This July, I came to the conclusion that I'm an atheist.

Though I now consider myself an atheist I still question about things and I even question my atheism. I was listening to a conversation about the development of the universe. A person was talking about an expanding/contracting universe when a theist asked "What is the purpose of that? It seems so pointless." The response was that there is no purpose or point to it. The theist couldn't accept that answer for he said that life has a purpose.

Very interesting lifestory! http://www.skepticalreview.com/ might be something for you.

BTW: I used to be a Satanist, but a few months ago I joined a Satanist forum and asked if being non-Christian implies being anti-Christian - I considered myself the first, but not the last; however a priest had said that a poem I had written was anti-religious, which in the context meant anti-Christian. I did not get an answer on the satanist forum, just some talk defending Christians. Now, if Satanists defends Christians, then what's the difference?

Anyway, I used to be a Christian until the age of 13 - I discovered that I didn't have a third cheek to turn.

Now, I've found out that by definition I'm a Lutheran, hence I have accepted to pose as such.

BelovedSonofRock said:
It appears that I have asked an unanswerable question. I'm okay with that.

So, the purpose for your joining this forum was to get that confirmed? You see: there's no way escaping purposes, they'll drag you along, whether you want it or not

cheers

- FreezBee

MidnightBlue · Nov 5, 2005

BelovedSonofRock said:
I'm 44 years old. I use to be a Charismatic/Fundamentalist (Yes, I know that they are two diifferent groups but they have so much in common.) I've read straight through the Hebrew Bible 3 times and the Chrisitian Testament 5 times before I graduated from high school (not that that means much). I also spent a large amount of time studying creationism for I saw creationism as a key in accepting the Bible literally and End-Times theology. I was also told by my spiritual leaders that Life has purpose and that I had a purpose.

In college I got involved in an Assembly of God church and Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship. In IV I was small group leader and eventually I became the chapter president. I also had to take a class on evolution. In that class I discovered that everything I was told about evolution by the creationists was wrong. I was deceived and lied to. And worse, I also discovered that I accepted things without questioning them. I started questioning and in 1985 my faith fell apart.

For 20 years I thought and contemplated about my faith, Christianity and other religions. I moved from being a Fundamentalist to a moderate to a liberal. Finally, I looked at what remained of my Christian faith, carefully examined each piece and discarded it. This July, I came to the conclusion that I'm an atheist.

Your story isn't so very different from mine, except that instead of becoming an atheist, I became the sort of Christian whom fundamentalists consider to be practically an atheist.

BelovedSonofRock said:
Though I now consider myself an atheist I still question about things and I even question my atheism. I was listening to a conversation about the development of the universe. A person was talking about an expanding/contracting universe when a theist asked "What is the purpose of that? It seems so pointless." The response was that there is no purpose or point to it. The theist couldn't accept that answer for he said that life has a purpose.

I'm not at all convinced that life has a purpose, or ought to, but I don't think that means it's pointless. If that makes any sense. It doesn't need a purpose to make it worthwhile, or at least worthwhile to me. And I guess I have goals and purposes of my own, even to the point of having a certain purpose to my life, but those are just things I've cobbled together and imposed on my life because it pleases me to do it; it doesn't mean anything about any kind of ultimate purpose.

BelovedSonofRock said:
That statement reminded me of The Purpose Driven Life which I read last year and how I remarked that the author assumed that life has a purpose.

I haven't read that, and don't intend to. It looks like something that would either bore me or annoy me. Self-help books are almost entirely a matter of taste, but a self-help book that purports to tell me what God thinks isn't likely to appeal to my taste; I lean more toward the "How To Construct A Fireplace From Old Beer Bottles In Your Spare Time" variety.

MidnightBlue · Nov 5, 2005

FreezBee said:
So, the purpose for your joining this forum was to get that confirmed? You see: there's no way escaping purposes, they'll drag you along, whether you want it or not

However, I don't know if you can parlay a purpose for joining CF into a purpose for life.

GQ Chris · Nov 5, 2005

Why must life have a purpose? Because anyone can suffer and consider themself "pious" or "religious" or "spiritual", and really anyone can do it and not do anything with their life.

For those who don't give in to mediocrity and despair, we have to live life to overcome and accomplish things.

FreezBee · Nov 6, 2005

MidnightBlue said:
However, I don't know if you can parlay a purpose for joining CF into a purpose for life.

True enough But I just couldn't resist the temptation

Anyway, I suppose that a purpose with life needs not be anything that drives you in the sense of a projected goal you need to reach. It could be simply taking care of your family, doing your job, avoiding traffic accidents, all such little, but ever so important things. Maybe that's what BelovedSonofRock has discovered?

cheers

- FreezBee

tanya88 · Nov 7, 2005

I can't picture my life without a purpose.

GQ Chris · Nov 7, 2005

Life is a gift, and the whole goal is to glorify God.

FreezBee · Nov 8, 2005

tanya88 said:
I can't picture my life without a purpose.

I suppose most people can't - but for some it may happen that they discover that chasing some purpose makes them loose their life. Occasionally, simple awareness of the beauty of the moment can give you a fuller life. Right now I'm sitting at a public library looking out at the autumn leaves as they color the ground. At the computer in front of me sit a pretty woman, once in a while we look at each other and exchange short smiles. What more can you ask for?

cheers

- FreezBee

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