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The Prophecies of the Beast in Revelation are Fulfilled

  • Thread starter GratiaCorpusChristi
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I don't want anyone to think that I don't believing in a coming antichrist. The epistles of John predict a future antichrist, 2 Thessalonians foresees a future 'man of sin,' and Revelation itself sees a future 'Gog and Magog' at the end of the millennial age. I'm simply saying that for the most part, the beast of Revelation is Nero.

The Seven Kings: 17:9-10

In Revelation 17:9-10 were are told of seven kings. Here is the actual text:

This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

The woman in this passage is the great harlot of Babylon, drunk with the blood of the martyrs. (As an extended side note, the text gives me every reason to think that this harlot is Jerusalem or the collaborating high priests of the first century; they were certainty drunk of the blood of the first martyrs, and also 'whored out' the Jewish people by collaborting with the Roman occupies, upon whom they rested)

The woman sits on seven hills (Rome is built on seven hills, and refered to as Babylon), which are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one 'is', and one is yet to come. The 'is,' I imagine, is the reigning ruler of Rome at the time of the writing of Revelation.

If we dating the rulers of Rome from Julius Caesar, as first century historians Tactitus and Seutonius did, see the five fallen kings as Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. That puts us at Nero. He is, and the seventh, not yet come and who remains for a little while, is the chaotic reign of A.D. 68 when Rome went through three emperors in a single year until the General Vespasian took power.

Seems clear that Revelation was written with Nero in mind. But it gets a lot clearer.

The Mark of the Beast: 13:18

Every good evangelical Christian has heard of the mysterious mark of the beast: 666.

What a lot of us forget, however, is that numbers in antiquity had values. Consider the Roman/Latin numeral system: I = 1, V = 5, X = 10, and so on.

Well, Hebrew did the same, and here are the numerical values for Nrwn Qsr, the transliteration of Nero Caesar to Hebrew.



Still more interesting is that in certain western manuscripts, 666 reads 616. Hebrew would not have been read in the west, but Latin surely would have- and sure enough, the Latin transliteration of Nrwn Qsr is 616.

It's important to remember that Roman coins were imprinted with the image of the emperor. Without this 'mark' of Nero, you couldn't buy or sell- exactly what verse 17 says (I'm well aware that the mark is imprinted on the forehead or the right hand- these are symbols of the slavery of Nero's rule, not literal brandings).

Now it's getting painfully obvious.

Worship of the Beast: 13:8, 15

The imperial cult was in full swing by the time Revelation was written. Why oppress people with the legions when you can have them worship you?

The Roman emperors were worshiped as deities. Many coins are imprinted with 'Augustus, Son of God' or 'Augustus, Lord and Savior.' People greated each other saying 'Hail, Caesar is Lord.' Makes it pretty clear why the beast isn't too keen on Christians! 'Jesus, Son of God,' 'Jesus, Lord and Savior,' 'Hail, Jesus is Lord' are politically charged terms.

This is nowhere truly than Nero. With Caligula and Commodus (the antagonist in Gladiator, by the way), Nero was one of the few emperors who actually had himself worshiped as a diety during his lifetime. Most were deified upon their death, but not Nero.

The Healing of the Beast: 13:3, 12, 14

In these passages the beast is mortally wounded, but healed.

Anybody heard of the Nero Redivivus story? In A.D. 68, Nero committed suicide when the western provinces of the empire rose of in revolt against him (having just narrowing escaped an assasination attempt during the Pisonian conspiracy of 66). Throughout the first century centuries A.D., people remained terrified of the resurrection of Nero. It remainded a popular myth for a long time, but it kept people quite terrified at first.

(I'm not suggesting that a silly myth has been incorporated accidentally into the text. I'm simply saying that, with all the other evidence that John had Nero in mind, he used this imagery to signify the return of evil forces after the final triumph over Babylon in 18:2.)

A Last Note

Please, please, oh please keep in mind the genre of apokalypsis when responding. Apocalyptic is an ancient genre found in a number of texts that uses literary hyperbole, symbols of clashing beasts, contrasts between dark and light, and what have you to give readers a glimpse into the inner workings of history. If Nero fails to meet some of the more specific details, remember that these are literary clues- not biographical sketches.
 

Stephen1

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The first beast of Revelation is still in the abyss and has been there since before the first century .... and he is not human. The ancient Roman Empire is not in the scope of visionary prophecy. The scope includes time lapse up to the end of the 69th week of years of the 70 weeks of years decreed for national Israel which terminated around 33 A.D. and the beginning of 70th week of 7 years which is still future today. Rome is recorded in the N.T. as a matter of historical record, but this is different than the content of the scope of visionary prophecy. The beast will come out of the abyss during the 70th week.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I don't believe the "denary" used in the time of Jesus is used any longer and that is the word used in revelation 6:6. Kewl!!!!

Reve 6:6 and I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, `A measure of wheat for a denary/dhnariou<1220>, and three measures of barley for a denary/dhnariou <1220>,' and `The oil and the wine thou mayest not injure.'

Luke 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded/kukloumenhn <2944> by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; 21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out;
Revelation 20:9 and they did go up over the breadth of the LAND, and did surround/ekuklwsan <2944> the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

kukloo (Strong's 2944) occurs 7 times in 5 verses:
 
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Stephen1

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The Lord's discourse in Luke regarding the surrounding of Jerusalem with armies is still future. Israel will be invaded and occupied by the prince that shall come (Satan's beast) and followers in the Middle East. This is still a future event and was not the Roman invasions of Israel in and around 70 A.D.
 
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Stephen1

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Compare Zechariah 14 with the historical record of the invasions of 70 A. D. by the Romans. They don't match. Also, the events of 70 A.D. occured about 40 years after the 69th week for national Israel ended. The 70th week is still future and the volume of related unfulfilled prophecy recorded in Scripture simply has not taken place in the past.
 
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armothe

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Also, the events of 70 A.D. occured about 40 years after the 69th week for national Israel ended. The 70th week is still future and the volume of related unfulfilled prophecy recorded in Scripture simply has not taken place in the past.

That doesn't make sense. You are saying 70AD couldn't have fulfilled Daniel's prophecy because it was 40 yrs too late, yet you state that the event is still future (2047 years too late).

If you at least want to be consistent you should be looking for an event around 30-33AD.

-A
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So the Jews get beat up on twice in the future?

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from You [Judah] and given to a Nation bearing the fruits of it.

Luke 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded/kukloumenhn <2944> by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; 21 then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out;
Revelation 20:9 and they did go up over the breadth of the LAND, and did surround/ekuklwsan <2944> the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Your views resemble preterist doctrine. The Lord is not finished with national Israel. They are in the land today and for a purpose. My understanding of Scripture is totally different.
Since you are "label-calling", your view is of Dispensationalism, and in fact, my view is close to the Orthodox Jew's own view of their Messiah accomplishing all things when He does show up.

Peter, the Apostle to the Jews says the same thing as a matter of fact.

1 Peter 4:7 But the end of All things is nigh at hand/hggiken <1448> (5758); therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Luke 21:27 `And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory; 28 and these things beginning to happen bend yourselves back, and lift up your heads, because the redemption of you doth draw nigh/eggizei <1448> (5719).'
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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First of all, there's no reason to identify the text of Daniel 9 with these texts in Revelation.

Moreover, why are you assuming that I think Daniel takes place in the future? See my other thread.

Moreover, everything I underlined is unsubstantiated assertion- not a very good argumentation tactic.


More unsubstantiated, blind assertions.

Your intellectual vigor is staggering.


First of all, why should this text and the texts of Revelation be synthesized? What makes you so sure they're refering to the same event?

Moreover, why don't they match? Seems plausible to me.

Truly, your capacity for argumentation is breathtaking.

Your views resemble preterist doctrine.

I'm sorry, is that a problem, Mr. Dispensationalist?

The Lord is not finished with national Israel. They are in the land today and for a purpose. My understanding of Scripture is totally different.

I never said he was finished. Romans 11 makes it clear that the bad branches of the tree of Israel, though currently broken off, will be grafted back into the covenant community.


Anybody else want to take a stab, or even attempt to refute my exegesis of Revelation without appealing to potentially unrelated passages of Scripture?
 
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phoenixgw

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The following titles also yield totals of 666:
  1. Lateinos (Latin Speaking Man - Greek)
  2. He Latine Basileia (The Latin Kingdom - Greek)
  3. Italika Ekklesia (Church of Italy - Greek)
  4. Vicarius Filii Dei (The Pope - Latin)
The Lamb-Dragon beast would seem to be the False Church and I don't mean just the RCC. Rather, I am speaking of a man-made church & its surrounding culture (including movements like the so-called "Christian Right.")

As you may recall, it was the Roman Empire that synthesized the organized church with brute thuggery, conquering in the name of the cross.

Read Revelation 13 and notice how the suddenly "Christian" U.S.-led War on Terror (Islam) has "resurrected" the Leopard-Bear-Lion beast.

"Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes" Revelation 18:4,5 NIV.
 
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Stephen1

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I would suggest that the woman of Revelation is a much broader scope of lost humanity and this condition has been present since the flood. The condition does include false religions, but much more. Many humans have no religion today and they are just as lost.

The description of of this condition at the time of the end is worldwide and there is a "great city" that is described as the financial, economic, and trading center of the world. Money, wealth, materialism, corruption, crime, etc. can be just as deceptive as any religion or more so and can keep humans from turning to the Lord for salvation. This is the very reason for her destruction and it is the Lord who does it. He will command living believers to come out of this lost world just before the destruction of its "great city". It is possible for the "great city" to be a great nation in today's connected world.
 
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ikester

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Your views resemble preterist doctrine. The Lord is not finished with national Israel. They are in the land today and for a purpose. My understanding of Scripture is totally different.

EXACTLY......and Nero was dead before 70ad.....neither was it the second coming ...nor the great tribulation ....Jesus said it was because the jews knew not the time of their visitation...they missed it...therefore their house would be left desolate.........
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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ikester said:
EXACTLY......and Nero was dead before 70ad.....neither was it the second coming

No one said it was the second coming.

Is anybody actually going to try and refute the OP, instead of just saying 'you're wrong because I disagree with you?'

Stephen1 said:
I would suggest that the woman of Revelation is a much broader scope of lost humanity and this condition has been present since the flood.

And I would suggest that Revelation has a much broader scope than just Nero, or the destruction of Jerusalem, or what have you.

The genre of apokalypsis, by definition, is concerned with unveiling the hidden dualities behind human existence. My simple point is that Revelation is apokalypsis that uses Nero as a symbol of evil, and is not entirely prophetic in genre. We shouldn't be running around wondering what will be the mark of the beast, or which country can produce a 200 million man army this decade, or trying to figure out the nature of the apollyon.

We should simple realize that Revelation is a message of hope to the churches- one that shows that through all the disastors bestriding the first century church, God will ultimately prevail. Now it uses first century figures to represent these evil forces (namely Nero), but it's principle purpose is one of encouragement- not fear, and certainly not a roadmap to the last days.
 
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Stephen1

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Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make [him] afraid. Jer 30:11 For I [am] with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. Jer 30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise [is] incurable, [and] thy wound [is] grievous. Jer 30:13 [There is] none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. Jer 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; [because] thy sins were increased. Jer 30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow [is] incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: [because] thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee. Jer 30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. Jer 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, [saying], This [is] Zion, whom no man seeketh after. Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. Jer 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who [is] this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD. Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Jer 30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done [it], and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
 
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