The problem with the doctrine of perfection

TrustAndObey · Aug 6, 2007

Jon, I for one, feel very blessed that you are comfortable enough here to confess an addiction that a lot of people would definitely frown on.

Pornography addiction is a very big problem, and we're definitely seeing the effects of it in this country.

We all have a sin like that I'm sure. Something that seems so easy to turn away from when you're looking in from the outside.

Whatever sin we have that grips us or makes us feel ashamed like that, is definitely something we can ONLY take to the foot of the cross. It's very powerful, but not as powerful as our Savior. Amen.

I do have to question, however. Why it is that so many men have confessed to be cleared of that same sin, and the next time you talk to them it "has" them again. If Jesus gave them the strength to turn away from it before, did He forsake them when they fell back into it?

Our Lord expects human effort through faith. That is painfully obvious to me when I read scripture. Abraham going to the mountain to offer Isaac as a burnt offering is a perfect example.

Being faced with armies that outnumber you dramatically, would take human effort through faith.

You have to want the change before the Savior can truly rid you of a sin, and if you fall back into that sin, who is to blame? Our Savior?

Human effort, confession, repentance, knowing the Word. It all falls hand-in-hand.

honorthesabbath · Aug 6, 2007

When a person hears the gospel and is convicted of their WRONG DOING and repents and is baptised, the righteousness of Christ is IMMEDIATELY imparted to that person, so that when God looks upon that individual he asks, "what sin"?

The robe of CHRIST'S righteousness covers that persons past life of sin (rebellion). And if that person then were to DROP dead right afterwards, their eternal life is guaranteed. PERIOD.

And it is no less the case with those who accepted Christ's righteousness and lived. But there is one vital difference. LIVING for Christ. As Paul said, 'not I that liveth, but Christ living IN me".

If Christ indwells the mind, then the character and the works will show it. The love for Christ and the appreciation for His unspeakable gift, will result in our willingness to allow HIM to change us.

Perfection of our character IS the goal, not heaven! Heaven (eternal life) is the REWARD for allowing Christ to change us from corruptable to incorruptable.

The reward of eternal life is the evidence that Christ presents to the unfallen worlds that we can be trusted, because we trusted in Him.

The bible makes it clear that "the offense shall not rise a second time". How can God be so sure as to make that HUGE statement about a race that for over 6,000 yrs were in rebellion against Him?

The perfection of character inspite of a nature that DEMANDS selfishness. When we, thru the workings of the Holy Spirit, reflect the mirror image of Christ in our characters, then and only then will we be trusted with eternal life. It proves that we have renounced our evil natures and have chosen instead to TRUST in God's promises.

Why oh why do we rebell so intensley against the idea of perfection now? Isn't that what we should be DESIRING? Are you really content to remain your old selfish selves? Do you not desire that the world should see Jesus in you?

What is so desirable about your character now that you wouldn't give all the get rid of it? Friends--sin is ugly! it's despicable--it reaks. But worst of all--it holds us PRISONER to it's demands. Oh don't you desire to be FREE from it's shakles? I certainly do.

And praise be to God--this is exactly why Christ came--TO SET US FREE!!!! Free from this septic tank of sin and rebellion that holds us.

If our desire to cherish even ONE sin--then we are not Christ's. In His eyes--it's ALL or nothing. He cannot accept a lukewarm heart.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I guess this is all that I can add to this discussion. If the points I've attempted to make are not clear by now-then please forgive me my inaptitude.

sentipente · Aug 6, 2007

TrustAndObey said:
I do have to question, however. Why it is that so many men have confessed to be cleared of that same sin, and the next time you talk to them it "has" them again. If Jesus gave them the strength to turn away from it before, did He forsake them when they fell back into it?

Because we insist on calling it a sin that Jesus takes away. Our theology is our own undoing. If Jesus takes it away then we expect Him to keep it away. The problem is that this arrangement is only in our minds. Jesus never promised to do what we say He does. He told us that He gave us the ability to conquer. So while we do nothing and wait for Him to do His thing our unregulated minds do their thing and we are right back where we started. The sad thing is that we refuse to admit that our theology is flawed. We like to tell people that "Jesus will change your nature" even that we should realize that makes no sense.

sentipente · Aug 6, 2007

Honor you are not inept for not being clear.

TrustAndObey · Aug 6, 2007

Honor, I think you were very clear.

sentipente · Aug 6, 2007

Why we always look for the negative is way beyond my payscale.

JonMiller · Aug 6, 2007

It is Christ that provokes the change of heart. Yes, I need to follow His leading. And He also gives me the strength to do so, when I pray.

A change of heart can be killed by not following it. And a change of heart doesn't mean that you never sin that sin again. As I said, there was a change in my desires. And I still had the old desires (still do at times), and so I did, and do, need to pray to God for strength.

And it is a lot easier to reveal personal information over the net, then in front of people.

JM

JonMiller · Aug 6, 2007

honorthesabbath said:
When a person hears the gospel and is convicted of their WRONG DOING and repents and is baptised, the righteousness of Christ is IMMEDIATELY imparted to that person, so that when God looks upon that individual he asks, "what sin"?

The robe of CHRIST'S righteousness covers that persons past life of sin (rebellion). And if that person then were to DROP dead right afterwards, their eternal life is guaranteed. PERIOD.

And it is no less the case with those who accepted Christ's righteousness and lived. But there is one vital difference. LIVING for Christ. As Paul said, 'not I that liveth, but Christ living IN me".

If Christ indwells the mind, then the character and the works will show it. The love for Christ and the appreciation for His unspeakable gift, will result in our willingness to allow HIM to change us.

Perfection of our character IS the goal, not heaven! Heaven (eternal life) is the REWARD for allowing Christ to change us from corruptable to incorruptable.

The reward of eternal life is the evidence that Christ presents to the unfallen worlds that we can be trusted, because we trusted in Him.

The bible makes it clear that "the offense shall not rise a second time". How can God be so sure as to make that HUGE statement about a race that for over 6,000 yrs were in rebellion against Him?

The perfection of character inspite of a nature that DEMANDS selfishness. When we, thru the workings of the Holy Spirit, reflect the mirror image of Christ in our characters, then and only then will we be trusted with eternal life. It proves that we have renounced our evil natures and have chosen instead to TRUST in God's promises.

Why oh why do we rebell so intensley against the idea of perfection now? Isn't that what we should be DESIRING? Are you really content to remain your old selfish selves? Do you not desire that the world should see Jesus in you?

What is so desirable about your character now that you wouldn't give all the get rid of it? Friends--sin is ugly! it's despicable--it reaks. But worst of all--it holds us PRISONER to it's demands. Oh don't you desire to be FREE from it's shakles? I certainly do.

And praise be to God--this is exactly why Christ came--TO SET US FREE!!!! Free from this septic tank of sin and rebellion that holds us.

If our desire to cherish even ONE sin--then we are not Christ's. In His eyes--it's ALL or nothing. He cannot accept a lukewarm heart.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I guess this is all that I can add to this discussion. If the points I've attempted to make are not clear by now-then please forgive me my inaptitude.

Buddists and many other religions all desire perfection. It isn't the point of Christianity. It is the old thing, and limited and human.

Did the theif on the cross have time to reflect Christ's character? The requirement to reflect Christ's character before we are saved is flat out unBiblical.

His character will stand in for ours, if we accept His gift. His Spirit, dwelling within us, also transforms us, but this doesn't cause us to instantly reflect His character.

If the requirement is to perfectly reflect His character, then it is too steep. And I have never met a person who does.

JM

mva1985 · Aug 6, 2007

mjona3 said:
Buddists and many other religions all desire perfection. It isn't the point of Christianity. It is the old thing, and limited and human.

Did the theif on the cross have time to reflect Christ's character? The requirement to reflect Christ's character before we are saved is flat out unBiblical.

His character will stand in for ours, if we accept His gift. His Spirit, dwelling within us, also transforms us, but this doesn't cause us to instantly reflect His character.

If the requirement is to perfectly reflect His character, then it is too steep. And I have never met a person who does.

JM

JM,

You are talking about Justification and Sanctification. Justification happens instantly - Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.

JonMiller · Aug 6, 2007

Did you read Honor's post?

JM

mva1985 · Aug 6, 2007

mjona3 said:
Did you read Honor's post?

JM

Yes, I did.

NightEternal · Aug 6, 2007

The robe of CHRIST'S righteousness covers that persons past life of sin (rebellion). And if that person then were to DROP dead right afterwards, their eternal life is guaranteed. PERIOD.

Christ's righteousness covers past, present and future sins. It is effacious enough to do that and it is not limited to only past sins.

If Christ indwells the mind, then the character and the works will show it. The love for Christ and the appreciation for His unspeakable gift, will result in our willingness to allow HIM to change us.

God does indeed want to change us and mold us into His image and character. However, the garing problem in Adventism and the major difference between SDAism and mainline Protestant salvation theology is that Adventism teaches our salvation is dependent on this growth process. It has essentially made sanctification the root instead of the fruit of salvation, the deciding factor in wether one is saved or not rather than merely the love response to the salvation already procurred on our behalf.

Perfection of our character IS the goal, not heaven!

Salvation and Heaven have already been secured for us at the cross. We are saved, so I am certainly not contending that we are working to gain what is already ours as a free gift:

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13,14

What part of guar-an-tee do Adventists not understand? A deposit is a way to secure something, leaving no question that it is ours. But too many want to continually place this inherited, guaranteed salvation in question at every oppourtunity, robbing the saints of there rightful, assured salvation. And others are foolish enough to let them do it.

Perfection of character is neither the goal as well. Christ has already imputed His pefect character to us, and, as our mediator and intercessor, His righteousness and perfection has to stand in place of our own. Everyone who will be in Heaven will have accepted the wedding garment. Those that try to weave thier own with the combined fabric of Christ's merits and thier own works will be left out in the cold.

Laodicia is counselled to seek for and secure for herself this imputed righteous, because she is blind and delusional as a result her own attempts at 'helping' God out in the salvation process.

Heaven (eternal life) is the REWARD for allowing Christ to change us from corruptable to incorruptable.

I have never heard of such a thing. Salvation and eternal life is a free gift, not a reward. A reward is wages given for work that is done. It is tantamount to saying that we lived a good life, so God is obligated to provide compensation for services rendered.

You have confused sanctification with glorification and made our Heavenly inheritance dependent upon this growth process we go through.

When we, thru the workings of the Holy Spirit, reflect the mirror image of Christ in our characters, then and only then will we be trusted with eternal life.

Nonsense. We are worthy of eternal life because Christ is worthy, and His worthiness stands in place of our own unworthiness.

What is this tendency so many have with trying to make it all about us and our sanctification experience instead of about Christ and what He has achieved in our behalf?

It's about HIM not us.

What is so desirable about your character now that you wouldn't give all the get rid of it?

Can a leopard change it's spots? That is the equivalent to what you are asking of sinners when you demand that they 'get rid' of thier sinful, fallen, carnal natures. If it was possible to us to wring out the nature of pre-fall Adam from the fallen one (we have inherited) before glorification, don't you think it would have been happening by now? Where are these ones who have accomplished such a feat before the appointed time of glorification? Show them to me, because I would love to meet them.

Even Enoch, who was translated, was still a sinner burdened with a fallen nature until he was glorified.

If our desire to cherish even ONE sin--then we are not Christ's.

Ah yes, the statement that has driven countless people from our ranks in complete discouragement. I know it well and have seen with my own eyes the destruction it causes.

StormyOne · Aug 6, 2007

We need to ask ourselves the same question. Do you believe that you have been radically saved? Do you believe that you have received the very Spirit of God? If so, how did that happen? Did that happen because you were good enough? Did that happen because you went to church enough? Did that happen because you did certain religious rituals? Or did it happen by grace through faith?
The message of Galatians has been very clear. It can only happen by grace through faith. We are only justified by faithPaul has said it over and over again. If that is true, then look at verse 3: Are you so foolish? This is where the irrational thought comes into play. Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
The false teachers, the Judaizers, were saying, Okay, even though you have been saved (now that you have been saved in order to perfect that) in order to bring it to completion, you have to do this, this, this and this. Paul says that is idiotic. He says you have a mental problem if that is what you think. How could the Law, which was unable to accomplish salvation, now bring about the completion of salvation? If it didnt work then, it is not going to work now. If it couldnt make us righteous then, it does not make us righteous now. What began by faith must be completed by faith.

http://media.lincolnberean.org/pdfdocs/Gal..._01_14Trans.pdf

Galatians 3:21-22

If such is the case, is the law, then, an anti-promise, a negation of God's will for us? Not at all. Its purpose was to make obvious to everyone that we are, in ourselves, out of right relationship with God, and therefore to show us the futility of devising some religious system for getting by our own efforts what we can only get by waiting in faith for God to complete his promise. For if any kind of rule-keeping had power to create life in us, we would certainly have gotten it by this time.

Some people don't like Paul's letters to the people of Galatia......

NightEternal · Aug 6, 2007

Excellent Stormy!

StormyOne · Aug 6, 2007

More snippets from a sermon from a minister who rightly divides the word..... IMO of course.....

James 2:10 says that if you offend the law in one point, you are guilty of the whole thing. The legalist makes up his own list. The legalist picks and chooses those things that define righteousness, and then everything else is just swept away as a non-issue. Paul said it does not work that way. I have noticed over the years that the legalist tends to make a list out of those things he or she does not struggle with, and is very quick to dismiss those things he does struggle with.

It might look like this on a Sunday morning. The legalist gets up and comes to church. He comes to church because he has tothat is on the list. He may have a heart full of self-righteousness. He may have a very critical judgmental heart. He may have a heart filled with pride. But he has figured out a way to justify those things. They are non-issues and they are not dealt with. After the service, he walks out to the parking lot and he sees a growing Christian light up a cigarette; and he immediately believes, You are less spiritual than I am. He has cast his judgment because that is on the list. He is walking through the foyer and up comes a high school student with a ring in his nose. Immediately he believes, You are less spiritual than I am because that is on my list.

Paul says, That is idiotic. That is legalism. It is just simply setting up our own standard to think, This is the list of rules that make us righteous. There are a whole bunch of sin issues in my life I am just going to dismiss as non-issues.

That is exactly what the Judaizers were doing. Paul said it does not work that way. If you believe that in order to be saved you have to keep the Sabbath, or take communion, or go through baptism, or attend a certain churchthat you have to do this or you have to do thatyou need to understand you are then saying that salvation is merited by Law. Therefore, you have to keep the whole thing. It is all or nothing. The conclusion is that nobody can do that. And that is exactly right.

Verse 11: Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, The righteous man shall live by faith. However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, He who practices them shall live by them. It is a very interesting statement Paul makes when he says, The Law is not of faith. I know a lot of legalists who would say they are people of faith. They are not. Paul says clearly that the legalist is not of faith. Legalism is the walk of sight. Grace is the walk of faith.

The legalist frankly just does not believe Galatians 2:20 is true. If you believe that grace is a license for sin, then you do not believe Galatians 2:20. Because the radical change that is now the very life of Christ will do far more to conform somebody to the image of Christ than the Law ever could pretend to do. The legalist does not believe that.

http://media.lincolnberean.org/pdfdocs/Gal..._01_14Trans.pdf

Jon0388g · Aug 6, 2007

mjona3 said:
I was going to wait until the new discussion forum started to post this, but have felt the urge to post it (I was thinking about it during my 90 minutes in the gym, and for a lot of the time since, and before).

Here is why I think this doctrine is dangerous.

People feel like they need to be perfected. They study the law to determine how to be perfect, and then stay away from temptation and try to follow the law.

This is not beleiving in Jesus Christ. Beleiving in Jesus Christ is beleiving that He will do as He says, that He has the power and will to do it. (even the devil believes in His existence, that gains you nothing)

One of the things He said, is that He will perfect us. He will do it from within, by changing our heart. Maybe some people get there before His second coming, but I doubt it. And it is obviously not necessary (He will never leave nor forsake us).

The problem with the doctrine is that people spend time studying the law, instead of praising Him, worshiping Him, doing service for Him, and, yes, even studying Him. I know adventists, who sit down and study the Bible to figure out how they should be living their life (looking for sins they are commiting). This is wrong!

It is the great lie that we should, or even can, do it ourselves. This is the problem with many other religions (look within to find enlightenment, acheive enlightenment through self denial). You can't make yourself perfect. And by fleeing all temptation (Which isn't sin itself, but you call sin because you aren't perfect and it causes you to sin), you limit the ways that God can use you and place stumbling blocks in front of others.

And the most important thing, is that there is no real change here. There is no change of the heart.

God both convicts of sin, changes our heart so that we want different things than sin, and gives us the power to do as He directs us.

Some testimonies: (personal, this is a warning!)

I use to have a temper. God took that away from me. I don't remember even praying about it... although I recognise that He did it and thank Him for it (and pray that it doesn't return). I use to strike people, really try to hurt them. Now, even in the worst traffic (For example), I have no temper.

I was a pornography addict. I liked it, and while I thought it was wrong for a number of years, after a time I thought there was nothing wrong with it (at least I am not having sex were my thoughts). As I spent more time praising and worshiping Him ,I became adverse to it, and found it disgusting and vile. Now I still had desires for it at times (even while finding it disgusting and vile), and so I prayed (And still pray, and probably will always need to pray here on this earth) to God to save me. And He has.

Both of these I didn't come to by study (my study time has been a bit low, but constant over the years, even when I wasn't attending church). I didn't try to triumph (OK, I did with the pornography, but I failed). I didn't even come to the conclusion that I should be doing differently. Christ changed me, He changed my heart. And if contrary desires still existed within me, He also overcame for me. I had nothing to do with it (except pray, which He also put within me).

And while I spend more time praising and worshiping Him, things that I use to find enjoyable, I now find to be lacking their charm.

Anyways, I could go on.

As in example of the poison of this doctrine, I know a young adventist who, when he feels the call of God, spends his time studying the Bible to see how to live his life. And this isn't the answer, and he ends up drifting away again. I just pray that he doesn't continue in this trap.

It is God who convicts us, changes us, give us strength, and judges us (We shouldn't be judging eachother! Well, I admit I judge murders and rapists a bit). We don't need to be studying the law. Or trying to make ourselves perfect. We just need to trust God (to have faith in Him). He will take care of everything.

JM
(And yes, I know that the law tells us about God. But if we study the law it should be to learn about God, not to learn what we should and should not be doing.)

I couldn't agree with you more. You have it spot on.

I could have copied your entire post and put "Jon" at the bottom instead of JM.

Even though I do believe it is possible to be sanctified entirely (I hate the word "perfection"), I agree with your perspective. For a quite a while I was struggling with the same things, always worrying that every sin I make I am slipping further and further away from the "perfect goal."

I now realise that the Bible teaches our only focus should be on the only Perfect being in history: Christ Jesus. It is when I realised that no matter how "perfect" I become, no matter how sanctified, looking to Jesus will show just how many light years I am away from His standard. This thought humbled me so much, I now look at things very differently.

And this is why I feel sanctification can yield its perfect result. Having your eyes fixed on Jesus, I can do "all things" including full obedience! Didn't the Lord say that He will finish the work He starts in us? Doesn't the Scriptures say "to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling"?

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Whenever I am tempted to sin, I picture myself clinging to the feet of Jesus, just like the woman who reached out just to touch the edge of His cloak.

"Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumberance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:1-2

As Paul says, "How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"

Jon

Jon0388g · Aug 6, 2007

NightEternal said:
Why the heck am I bothering with this anyhow, most of you have me on ignore.

I don't have you on ignore, Night. You make me laugh! (No sarcasm intended, you truly are funny!)

Could I ask you a question? You said (not exact quote)that we can reach as high as we want behaviour-wise: however our sinful natures will not be changed until the Second Coming.

Do you have any Scripture to back this up? Is this what you feel the text "we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye" is referring to?

When Paul says we "die to sin", what do you think he means? When we are born again in the Spirit, do our sinful natures remain unchanged? What is meant by "we become a new creation"?

I realise that is way more than one question. Please forgive me.

NightEternal said:
Salvation and Heaven have already been secured for us at the cross. We are saved, so I am certainly not contending that we are working to gain what is already ours as a free gift:

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13,14

What part of guar-an-tee do Adventists not understand?

I'd also like to pick up on this. What translation are you quoting from? Does the word "guarentee" appear in the Greek? Sounds like OSAS to me.

My NASB reads: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

A deposit is a way to secure something, leaving no question that it is ours.

And if we choose to destroy/give up that which we put down a deposit for, what happens to the deposit?

Jon

NightEternal · Aug 6, 2007

Could I ask you a question? You said (not exact quote)that we can reach as high as we want behaviour-wise: however our sinful natures will not be changed until the Second Coming.

Do you have any Scripture to back this up? Is this what you feel the text "we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye" is referring to?

Yes. And I know very well the TSDA belief that this is only refering to our physical state and nothing else, but I do not agree. Corruptible and mortality encompass the pysical and the spiritual degeneracy we are afflicted with, not just the physical. Flesh and blood will not enter into Heaven. That involves our spiritual aspect, including our character. The whole thing must be overhauled and changed back to pre-fall Adam by Christ and only by Him, with no assistance from us.

I also know that EGW claims this is not so, but I do not agree with her based on my studies. So, I just saved you the time and trouble of posting a whole slew of her quotes that state we must perfect our own characters. Aren't you glad?

When Paul says we "die to sin", what do you think he means?

It means we make the concious choice daily to ask forgiveness for our sin and accept Christ's righteousness on our behalf. Like Jacob, we must wrestle with Christ daily in prayer until we have the assurance of His blessing. We, who once were slaves to sin are now slaves to righteousness, make the decision daily to die or turn away from our sinfulness and take refuge in His righteousness.

When we are born again in the Spirit, do our sinful natures remain unchanged?

Yes, of course. Sin is a condition, not merely wrong behaviors.

What is meant by "we become a new creation"?

We will experience change, of course. We will no longer be the same person we once were and people will see a difference in us. However, it must always be rememberd that our righteousness has been rendered as filthy rags by our condition. Even our prayers and finest deeds are tainted by sin and slefishness in some way. That is why Paul says any progress he has made and any good works he has done, he counts it all as nothing, worthless, in comparison to the imparted righteousness of Christ.

I'd also like to pick up on this. What translation are you quoting from?

N.I.V.

Does the word "guarentee" appear in the Greek? Sounds like OSAS to me.

It can be translated that way, yes.

My NASB reads: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1:13-14

Basically the same idea coming across with this version.

And if we choose to destroy/give up that which we put down a deposit for, what happens to the deposit?

No, I am not advocating once saved always saved. I have explained this to other forum members here in the past. You can choose to give up your salvation and turn away from Christ. But for those who have not done this, salvation is a gaurantee.

JonMiller · Aug 6, 2007

I don't see how a scientific minded person can neglect the part that the physical mind (genetics!) plays on our characters and personalities.

JM

NightEternal · Aug 6, 2007

We can definitely play a part in the area of trying to be more like Christ and patterning our characters after the Great Pattern. Emulate does not mean we will equal it. The change that transpires at glorificaiton which will render our characters as sinlessly perfect cannot be accomplished by us, it's as simple as that. It has to be all Christ's work, or we will have occasion to boast that we played a part in our salvation, something Paul gravely warns against.

The best Christians can do is have the right attitude of obedience that God requires. Christ takes into consideration the tendency our lives have towards righteousness and our desire to be more like Him. He accepts our good works and accounts it to us as righteousness. That in no way means our good deeds have any inherent righteousness in them, because they do not. Christ's perfection must still stand in place of our own to qualify us for Heaven.

The problem with the doctrine of perfection

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