juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
- Apr 5, 2007
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He won't. So we say it "can not" to be destroyed.
In this view, it is very easy to see.
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An omnipotent entity can't destroy a life. Yeah, it's a mystery.
Perhaps, we shall see.
This is a non-answer. Okay, so you believe God is "righteous" and "holy." Okay. So? How does this justify eternal torment for people who do not believe in God? That is neither righteous nor holy.
No, that sounds more like God declaring himself against "unholy things".So, if something is unholy, for example, then the unholy thing is against God.
So if God "leaves that person alone" he doesn't allow them tortured after death?If one is against God, then he will not want to see God. God loves the person. But the person does not love God. So, God would leave that person alone.
Very simple. Isn't it?
No, that has not been the case for myself.The evidence of God's existence has been clearly manifested to all people who have ever walked upon the face of this earth.
Not very clearly manifested, if "invisible" is used to describe them.God's invisible attributes , namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. They are therefore without excuse.
No, it is a matter of evidence. If you had evidence, you would not need to say this.In other words, you have been given sufficient evidence to know God exists. That is why this is not a matter of evidence, but a matter of will.
Personally, I have no issue with Jesus, only the lack of support for claims of 'divinity.'Several atheists here have already acknowledged and admitted their disgust for Jesus Christ. They have said that even if He were to reveal Himself personally to them, they would wonder what right He had to tell them how to live their lives. This betrays the state of blindness, and hardness of heart within such a one.
The stories may also have been inspired by tricksters, illusionists, or complete fabrications.You all are no different than those who attributed the miracles of Christ as having being performed by demons.
In the absence of robust evidence, this is a throwaway comment.No evidence will satisfy you because you will always have something to say.
No, you are projecting.Usually some smart, sarcastic, remark which only lends to further revealing your stiff necked, prideful arrogance.
Please, go on, and tell me what else I think about my life.I also find it odd that atheists want to come to a Christian Forum and speak about evidence as if you actually think you are going to convert us to your meaningless, hopeless, lifeless, blind worldview that you are not even satisfied with.
Given the demonstrable ability of humans for self deception, one should be wary of anecdotal evidence. How can you be sure of the experiences of these others that you speak of?As if you are going to somehow get us to bow to your requests and commands. The truth of the matter is: Each and every person who has put their trust in Jesus Christ has the witness of God within themselves. I know God is true because He lives in me.
You know to be true, but cannot demonstrate to anyone else. Are you just guessing it is true?I know Jesus Christ died and rose again for my sins because I have been forgiven and I can love people who openly and unapologetically slander the one who died for them. I know my Redeemer lives and I know that I shall one day see Him face to face. I have posted all that I have for your sakes, not for mine. For that which I can know to be true only adds to my faith.
Yes, but if you are on dry land, with no water to be seen, and the lifejacket salesperson won't stop trying to sell you their wares, can't show you the actual life jacket, and from the brochure you can see that it is full of holes and wouldn't hold anything afloat, one should not be surprised to be met with scepticism.Let each man and woman be convinced in their own heart. I say all of this in love. If you are drowning in the ocean and somone comes to you in a boat and throws you a life jacket, put it on!
Their inability to demonstrate the validity of their assertions.Why be suspicious about the motives of the one trying to save you?
What you assert as truth appears only to be religion.Accept it and be thankful. But alas! I am afraid that many are too blind to see their predicament. I pray that ultimately you may be made to see. For if one is not willing to see the truth, then no one can show it to them.
You do not appear to be in that search.There are very few people who actually are searching for the truth here.
Speak for yourself. I am here to discuss. If ridicule is invited, it may occur. But with luck, and increase in understanding will happen on all sides.Most just want to argue and berate and ridicule those who they cannot understand.
Only if those people would keep their religious claims out of the politics, government, and education.If your atheistic view is so great, then live it and stop trying to get people who are sons and daughters of the most High God to follow you into nothingness.
Just not in any way that you can demonstrate.We have all that we could ever desire in our Blessed Lord. We have more than enough when we have Him.
I have no more rejected his company than I have 'rejected' the company of Thor, Zeus and Odin.
So why do you think I reject Zeus, Odin and Thor? Do you think I make a decision to be separate from them or do you think I reject them as a proposition?All of whom you have chosen to reject consciously.
I have elected to not believe in the proposition that Christianity makes due to a lack of evidence in favour of its proposition. I have reject Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism and all other faiths for similar reasons. My disbelief is based on a lack of evidence and not wanting to be apart. Additionally it is worth pointing out that belief is not a choice. I did not choose to not believe in Christianity, it is a consequence of my convictions.Proof is subjective; the decision the believe or not to believe is personal. You have chosen not to believe in God and therefore not to follow Him.
If that is so then God ought to put me out of my misery. Anything less would be immoral.When you realize after death that you have made the wrong decision, you will be tormented by that fact--not because God wants it, or because Christians want it, but because that's the natural consequence of knowing you have given up eternal joy.
No, that has not been the case for myself.
Not very clearly manifested, if "invisible" is used to describe them.
No, it is a matter of evidence. If you had evidence, you would not need to say this.
Personally, I have no issue with Jesus, only the lack of support for claims of 'divinity.'
The stories may also have been inspired by tricksters, illusionists, or complete fabrications.
In the absence of robust evidence, this is a throwaway comment.
No, you are projecting.
Please, go on, and tell me what else I think about my life.
Given the demonstrable ability of humans for self deception, one should be wary of anecdotal evidence. How can you be sure of the experiences of these others that you speak of?
You know to be true, but cannot demonstrate to anyone else. Are you just guessing it is true?
Yes, but if you are on dry land, with no water to be seen, and the lifejacket salesperson won't stop trying to sell you their wares, can't show you the actual life jacket, and from the brochure you can see that it is full of holes and wouldn't hold anything afloat, one should not be surprised to be met with scepticism.
Their inability to demonstrate the validity of their assertions.
What you assert as truth appears only to be religion.
You do not appear to be in that search.
Speak for yourself. I am here to discuss. If ridicule is invited, it may occur. But with luck, and increase in understanding will happen on all sides.
Only if those people would keep their religious claims out of the politics, government, and education.
Just not in any way that you can demonstrate.
Muslims make rather similar claims for themselves and there are not that much fewer of them than Christians. Many adherents of other religions also claim some kind of insight into the supernatural and many of them will do it with as much conviction of anyone contained in Christianity.Eloenai26 said:You seem to be under the impression that only a handful of people are Christians and claim to know their Lord personally. God's children are living throughout the world, hundred of millions of them from every nation.
I am sure they are. As brave and courageous as victimised missionaries might be, I can't help but hold more respect for people fighting against government and religious persecution in dictatorships and theocracies, or aid workers handing out food and helping to uplift those stuck perpetual poverty.God's children are living throughout the world, hundred of millions of them from every nation. Many are giving their lives for people they do not know peronally in the defense and spreading of the gospel.
You can repeat this as sanctimoniously and as proudly as you like. So long as you keep insulting us and telling us what we think you will still be met with a certain degree of antagonism. That you wrap your actions and statements towards us as some act of compassion just rubs us further the wrong way.For Christ said that it is by the love we have for one another that the world would know we are His disciples. And as I have stated earlier, I love each and every one of you hear.
I cannot bring myself to worship a God that would allow billions of people to be tormented for eternity purely for not believing a certain way. Can't be done. This would be so even if I believe this God actually existed.I do so because God loves me and loves you all. It is because of this love and because of the knowledge I do have about hell that I speak as I do.
This isn't the right thread for it, but I will make it so.I feel it necessary to address this here and now because it has been used by every atheist here as their reason for not believeing in God. What evidence would be sufficient for you to put your hope, your trust, and you life into the hands of Jesus Christ. What would you consider to be sufficient proof that would convince you to believe in Him?
This isn't the right thread for it, but I will make it so.
I'd first have to receive empirical evidence for his existence. Something that indicates he actually does exist and is you describes and/or I'd have to receive a reasoned argument that successfully demonstrates the necessary of his existence.
Now, that's that briefly anyway. There is a second part though.
If you did convince me of God's existence I would then have to be convinced that this being is worth worshiping. You (or him) would have to defend the necessity of hell to me and provide reasons why we are cursed with sin amongst other things. Simply put: I currently think the idea of hell for non-believers is evil and cannot bring myself to worship evil.
No more than I do to affirm that Zeus does not exist.Do you have empirical evidence to affirm that God does not exist?
No more than I do to affirm that Zeus does not exist.
A good job then it is that I have never claimed that God does not exist. I merely hold skepticism towards the claim that God does exist. That you still don't understand what atheism means is unbelievable.
Atheists can believe anything but they all agree on one thing:You must forgive me. Since there is such a diversity in the train of thought of atheists, I have to understand what your understanding of atheism is. Some atheists positively affirm that God does not exist. That is why I have to know.
Correct.So once again you are saying that you have no empirical evidence that God does not exist. Meaning that you cannot prove that He does not exist correct?
No, but the number making that claim are irrelevant, and does not reflect on the validity of their claim.You seem to be under the impression that only a handful of people are Christians and claim to know their Lord personally.
You will first need to establish your assertions as 'reality.' You have yet to do so.God's children are living throughout the world, hundred of millions of them from every nation. Many are giving their lives for people they do not know peronally in the defense and spreading of the gospel. For Christ said that it is by the love we have for one another that the world would know we are His disciples. And as I have stated earlier, I love each and every one of you hear. I do so because God loves me and loves you all. It is because of this love and because of the knowledge I do have about hell that I speak as I do. I would not be a friend to you nor would I be acting in love if I did not warn you about it's dreadful reality.
Yes - demonstrable, testable, repeatable by others. Falsifiable.You speak of demonstrable evidence.
None of which is demonstrable evidence.Christianity's claims are demonstrably true in the life of each and every peron who comes to Christ and is born from above by the Holy Spirit of God. The change is wrought inwardly and is manifested outwardly. It has been oftentimes said that the best apologetic is a changed life. I believe this is true, for those who once knew me as a blasphemer and a reprobate now know me as a man who loves God and loves his neighbor as himself.
But not falsifiable, and therein lies the problem.With man this is impossible to accomplish, but with God, all things are possible.
It depends on what you mean by "tormented." That usually carries connotations of one inflicting pain on another, while this is simply not true according to the doctrine of Hell. God does not directly torture one, and I don't think we should say any type of demons could either since there is no Biblical support for such an idea. In conclusion here, it cannot be logically claimed that there is a type of physical pain experienced in Hell since the immortal soul is immaterial.The Problem of Hell
Many Christians and Muslims endorse the idea that all unsaved, or all non-believers will at death be tormented for eternity for their sin or for their non-decision in accepting the sacrifice of Jesus or Allah as God and Mohammed as his messenger respectively.
Yes, but first I would like to define this. Omnipotence means that God is able to perform anything logically possible, not anything illogical or contradicting. For example, God cannot create a square circle. Not because there is an ability on God's behalf, but because the square circle itself cannot exist. So to say that God cannot create something that cannot exist is only fatuous.These same Christians and Muslims often claim at the same time that God is all-merciful and all-powerful.
I think if it was so obvious it shouldn't take as long of a thread to show the obviousness. As of now those two conclusions as unwarranted, as there is no further argumentation to support them. There are no premises that connect to either of those conclusions, and until that is provided, there is no reason to pay them any attention.My primary contention is that these claims are in obvious contradiction and cannot be reconciled. Either God is all-loving and proposes no hellfire for all non-Christians or God is evil and allows all non-Christians to be tormented for their lack of belief after death.
Again, this depends on what you are defining "torture" as. If you mean physical, or even inflicted pain on the souls of Hell, this is simply a misconception. Since you haven't expounded on the notion of "torture" this argument isn't that effective.My secondary contention is that anyone who vigorously defends this doctrine has serious moral problems in that they are willing to defend and approve of the potential and actual torture of billions and billions of people entirely for what they didn't think. That is the literal endorsement of permanent torture for thought-crime - punishment for what people think or don't think. I can actually think of nothing more depraved, more evil. The peak of the imagination for sadism cannot be eclipsed.
Let's think about what it means for us to actually say, "God sends souls to Hell." We do not mean that God actively 'puts' one's soul in Hell. We mean that God distributes His everlasting judgement, and finalizes a punishment just as a judge for a court would. The judge doesn't actually walk the inmate down to jail, throw him in there and lock the doors. All the judge does is sentence the individual. More accurately, then, we could say "God sentences souls to Hell."I invite all who defend this doctrine to enter this thread and morally defend the proposition that God allows people to enter hell for eternity.
While I do not agree with the way this argument is formulated, I do agree with the basic premise: one 'chooses' to go to Hell. Or more specifically, we choose to go to Hell indirectly. We can say this is not even because a rejection of Jesus but because of our sins themselves. It is because of our sins that we would find ourselves confronted with everlasting punishment, and it is those sins that we wanted to engage in. Just as the prisoner may not necessarily want to go to jail, but wants to commit the crimes that will put him in jail, he is responsible for his being in jail. The same can be said of everlasting punishment. One would be in Hell because they wanted to sin, or wanted to disregard the divine law. So it's not said that one would consciously reject Heaven for Hell, but consciously does the things that will make him experience Hell.Common Arguments:
We choose to go to hell by rejecting Jesus' offer of salvation.
- This is simply untrue. I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus and the offer of his sacrifice due to a lack of evidence and reasoned argument in favour of it. My skepticism on this point reflects only my convictions and has nothing to do with choosing hell. This argument also completely ignores the existence of Muslims, Sikhs, Zoroastarians and plenty of other theists that have their own understanding of redemption and paradise. Do you seriously contend that they rejected heaven and opted for hell? This argument is blatant nonsense.
elopez said:It depends on what you mean by "tormented." That usually carries connotations of one inflicting pain on another, while this is simply not true according to the doctrine of Hell. God does not directly torture one, and I don't think we should say any type of demons could either since there is no Biblical support for such an idea. In conclusion here, it cannot be logically claimed that there is a type of physical pain experienced in Hell since the immortal soul is immaterial.
When the Bible speaks of torment in relation to Hell, it is only symbolic of the self inflicting conscious state the soul really experiences in Hell. Kind of like someone going crazy in prison by realizing they are wrong and now is too late. Constantly thinking about it as that's all there is to do in Hell. That type of torment is more significant than anything physical, as that would really pose no threat to an immortal soul.
Yes, but first I would like to define this. Omnipotence means that God is able to perform anything logically possible, not anything illogical or contradicting. For example, God cannot create a square circle. Not because there is an ability on God's behalf, but because the square circle itself cannot exist. So to say that God cannot create something that cannot exist is only fatuous.
I think if it was so obvious it shouldn't take as long of a thread to show the obviousness.
I was explaining my contention. I await any willing believer in the hellfire doctrine to provide a good argument for why eternal torment or "receiving pain" for all non-Christians is justified. I am yet untroubled by anything anyone has ever said in defense of it.As of now those two conclusions as unwarranted, as there is no further argumentation to support them. There are no premises that connect to either of those conclusions, and until that is provided, there is no reason to pay them any attention.
Again, this depends on what you are defining "torture" as. If you mean physical, or even inflicted pain on the souls of Hell, this is simply a misconception. Since you haven't expounded on the notion of "torture" this argument isn't that effective.
Let's think about what it means for us to actually say, "God sends souls to Hell." We do not mean that God actively 'puts' one's soul in Hell. We mean that God distributes His everlasting judgement, and finalizes a punishment just as a judge for a court would. The judge doesn't actually walk the inmate down to jail, throw him in there and lock the doors. All the judge does is sentence the individual. More accurately, then, we could say "God sentences souls to Hell."
While I do not agree with the way this argument is formulated, I do agree with the basic premise: one 'chooses' to go to Hell. Or more specifically, we choose to go to Hell indirectly.
We can say this is not even because a rejection of Jesus but because of our sins themselves. It is because of our sins that we would find ourselves confronted with everlasting punishment, and it is those sins that we wanted to engage in.
Just as the prisoner may not necessarily want to go to jail, but wants to commit the crimes that will put him in jail, he is responsible for his being in jail.
The same can be said of everlasting punishment. One would be in Hell because they wanted to sin, or wanted to disregard the divine law.
So it's not said that one would consciously reject Heaven for Hell, but consciously does the things that will make him experience Hell.
My point is to express to others who adhere to eternall hellfire for all non-Christians through argument how depraved and evil their beliefs are. To me, you are defending torture for thought-crime. You are actually as it stands in favour of having pain inficted upon me for eternity for what I think. I am trying to put it as sharply and as bluntly as I can to point out how horrific it actually is.Skavau, you don't believe in the Judeo-Christian God, therefore you do not believe in hell, so if this is the case, then our answers to you regarding the OP are going to be unbelievable as well. So what is your point?
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