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Brennin

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I'm not sure if you are illiterate, or a liar.

This is, of course, a false dichotomy.

Fill us in.

Who are the other people granted the power of the keys in the new testament?

The other apostles in Matthew 18:18.

Please provide the relevant quote for the class, genius.

Matthew 18

15 ‘If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If the member listens to you, you have regained that one. 16But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax-collector. 18Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.’
 
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JacktheCatholic

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This is not a prophecy of Peter so what happens to the Prime Minister or King here is not relevant.
 
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Brennin

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So you prefer to see Matthew 16:19 as a miraculous accident, rather than that Jesus intended the parallel to Isaiah 22:22. There is something ridiculous about that.

The only ridiculous thing here is that you think you have a point.
 
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chestertonrules

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Ok, you are BOTH a liar and illiterate.

Case closed.
 
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chestertonrules

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No comment on these facts from scripture.

Too much to read, Brennin?

Take your time. I know it's harder for you because you need to add words that aren't there occasionally.
 
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tblaine74

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I have explained to you why "keys" are not explicitly referred to in Matthew 18:18.

Yes, because they don’t need to be. Why? Because of my fallacious logic. Why is my logic not fallacious? Because Matthew 18:18 refers to the keys. Why are the keys not mentioned in Matthew 18:18? Because they don’t need to be.

Its no wonder you can’t read Matthew 18:18 as it is written, you are spinning in circles.
 
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Brennin

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Ok, you are BOTH a liar and illiterate.

Case closed.
I am neither illiterate nor am I a liar (unlike several of your popes). I am sorry that my knocking down your house of straw theology causes you such dyspepsia but better the bitter truth than a honeyed lie.
 
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Brennin

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No comment on these facts from scripture.

Too much to read, Brennin?

Take your time. I know it's harder for you because you need to add words that aren't there occasionally.

Peter was certainly important but his primacy is that of primus inter pares.

Galatians makes it clear that Peter was no "pope:"

Galatians 2

Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2I went up in response to a revelation. Then I laid before them (though only in a private meeting with the acknowledged leaders) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure that I was not running, or had not run, in vain. 3But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4But because of false believers secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might enslave us— 5we did not submit to them even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might always remain with you. 6And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those leaders contributed nothing to me. 7On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised 8(for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the Gentiles), 9and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10They asked only one thing, that we remember the poor, which was actually what I was eager to do.

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned; 12for until certain people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But after they came, he drew back and kept himself separate for fear of the circumcision faction. 13And the other Jews joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, ‘If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?’
 
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tblaine74

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The only ridiculous thing here is that you think you have a point.

But, let me guess, you, like simonthezealot, are too bored to demonstrate it. Unfortunately, I am apparently not as talented as you two. I can not demonstrate things with a mere objection. Though, I might prefer your objections to your circular logic.
 
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Brennin

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...Matthew 18:18 refers to the keys. Why are the keys not mentioned [explicitly] in Matthew 18:18? Because they don’t need to be.

With the bolded emendation the statement is correct. Having previously introduced the symbol and its function he need not explicitly refer to the symbol again.
 
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chestertonrules

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Absolutely not true.

Peter could error in judgment just like any other pope.

His primacy only relates to official matters of the faith.

Irrelevant.

Keep trying!


For the record, here is his first proclamation at the council of Jerusalem:

Acts 15
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
 
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Brennin

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Isaiah 22:22 is ancillary to Matthew 16:19. Even if it were being alluded to there is nothing that requires the keys in Matthew being entrusted to only one person. You admitted the parallel is not exact despite being one of the biggest pushers of it and therein lies your answer.
 
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tblaine74

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With the bolded emendation the statement is correct. Having previously introduced the symbol and its function he need not explicitly refer to the symbol again.

And with that the logic ceases to be circular? You better take another look.
 
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Brennin

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Absolutely not true.

Peter could error in judgment just like any other pope.

His primacy only relates to official matters of the faith.

Irrelevant.

Keep trying!

Should I resort to Dick, Jane, and Spot? First of all, Peter is not differentiated in authority from the other "pillars." Moreover, Paul does not treat him as pope, thereby destroying the age old pretensions of the Bishops of Rome.
 
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chestertonrules

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Should I resort to Dick, Jane, and Spot? First of all, Peter is not differentiated in authority from the other "pillars." Moreover, Paul does not treat him as pope, thereby destroying the age old pretensions of the Bishops of Rome.
How is a pope treated?

You don't think other bishops debate with him?

Get a grip. Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance.
 
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Brennin

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How is a pope treated?

You don't think other bishops debate with him?

Get a grip. Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance.

Perhaps Paul incurred a latae sententiae excommunication from "Pope" Peter!

Your RC projections and pretensions are laughable.
 
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tblaine74

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Did I say something to suggest the parallel was not “exact”? I remember saying something in reference to the terms not being verbatim. “if it were being alluded to there is nothing that requires the keys in Matthew being entrusted to only one person” other than the very significance of the keys. We’ve already been through this. Eliakim filled a position (singular), of which plurality would contradict the very nature of the position.
 
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chestertonrules

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Perhaps Paul incurred a latae sententiae excommunication from "Pope" Peter!

Your RC projections and pretensions are laughable.
Gibberish.

Popes and bishops debate vigorously all the time.

Then they prayer and try to discern the will of God through the Holy Spirit. The Pope gets the final say given that he was granted special power by Jesus.


By the way, what caused Peter to accept gentiles as full Christians?

Here's a reminder:

Acts 11

4Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened: 5"I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. 7Then I heard a voice telling me, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'

8"I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' 9"The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.....

15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[a]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
 
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