The PCA

rmwilliamsll said:

persistence....

i can google messages i left on boards almost 10 years ago. i've changed my normal login name on the boards twice now because the volume of google responses made it hard to find my own past threads.

imho, it will be a problem in the future, if not already. i am sure if prospective employers googled my online volume they would wonder if i would misuse company internet connections. plus worry just a little about my sanity as well.

just a key word for the day.
persistence

the ability of things posted to the net to outlast their intended usefulness and acquire new unexpected and undesired purposes.....

*Grin*

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Ahhhhh.....okkk

I thought I would post the testimony of a former PCA pastor regarding the problems he experienced first hand with the PCA:

Why I Want to (and did) Join the RPCUS

By







The house was slowly yet steadily being undermined. More and more of the foundation was exposed as the excavation proceeded. The team of demolition experts was hitting the exposed foundation with hammers. Each blow created cracks in the foundation. These cracks steadily crawled up the walls. However, the occupants of the house lauded the progress that was being made by their wisdom and broadmindedness. The mantra that they had sung for years grew louder as more and more elders joined them. "Diversity is our strength," they sang as they honored the very men who were gradually destroying the very foundations upon which the house rested. They rejected any warnings that the course they were on spelled disaster for the house and those in it. "We need to be charitable rather than criticize these men who are so broad minded. We personally don't see the issues the way they do, yet we certainly don't want to offend them by asking them to adhere to our own personal interpretation of Scripture. After all we are one big happy family. We don't want to be so parochial as to "bind anyone's conscience" or exclude anyone who says they love Jesus."

Such is the sad state of the PCA.

Praise God for the RPCUS, a reformed denomination that is seeking to live out the original motto of the PCA, my present denomination: True to the Scriptures, the reformed faith and the great commission.

Why do I want to join the RPCUS? Let me summarize the reasons.

1) I want to be part of a denomination that is True To The Scriptures. We must bow before the authority of God and His Word, the Bible. Not only is the inerrancy and infallibility of the Scripture crucial, but also the sufficiency of Scripture is vital to Biblical Christianity. We must have the Bible as our only rule of faith and practice; the only rule in every area of life.

2) I want to be part of a denomination that is True To The Reformed Faith. The Lord God brought a great reformation in the 1500's and 1600's. He brought His Church back to the Bible. We are spiritual heirs of this great work of God. We must be willing to stand with those great men and women upon the Word of God. We must not shrink back from the Bible and the truth of Scripture known as the reformed faith, the faith that John Calvin, John Knox and Martin Bucer preached and lived!

3) I want to be a part of a denomination that is True To The Great Commission. Only the Jesus of the Bible can save people, families, churches, institutions and whole cultures from the ravages of sin and death and hell. Future generations need a Biblical denomination that will stand unflinchingly as she proclaims the Gospel from the whole counsel of God in the Scriptures.

First, the RPCUS is a denomination that seeks to bow before the authority of the Scriptures, even when it is not politically correct in the eyes of our culture to do so. True To The Scriptures. Several examples will suffice.

Creation. There is no other teaching in Scripture that is more foundational and central to the remainder of Holy Scripture and Biblical Christianity than creation. The RPCUS clearly has taken its stand with the Westminster Standards. The Bible teaches that God created the heavens and the earth in the space of six days [six twenty-four hour days] and rested on the Sabbath day [seventh day], thereby instituting the Sabbath day and declaring it very good. What difference does it make? The seeds of neo-orthodoxy are found in the accommodating views that we see today such as: the day age theory, gap theory, and the poetic view of creation. These views cuddle up to an evolutionary view of origins and make room for interpretations of Scripture that do violence to the Bible's own interpretation of itself. It is the chief tool of neo-orthodoxy to take the Word of God and make it say something that it really doesn't say or mean. By this contorted method of hermeneutics, which is the kingpin of neo-orthodoxy, such issues as homosexuality and abortion have been championed and legitimized in our culture. This same method of interpreting the Scripture has been used to deny such cardinal doctrines as the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Christ. The very seeds of apostasy and unbelief are being sown and nurtured in my own denomination today. Man after man comes up to me and says, "Well now, Henry, I personally believe in the twenty-four hour day, but you just can't force that view. Scripture just isn't clear and just doesn't say." I want to be part of a denomination that is willing to take a stand on what the Bible clearly teaches regardless of its popularity.

The roles of men and women. A growing number of elders in the PCA advocate women becoming deacons. Others advocate women leading in worship services and preaching the Word of God as long as it is "under the oversight of the session". This erroneous position is held even in the face of the very clear teaching of I Timothy 2 (forbidding the women in the church to teach or exercise authority over a man in the church), and I Timothy 3:1ff (a qualification for elders and deacons being "the husband of one wife"). In the PCA accommodation to the values of our egalitarian, evolutionary, and humanistic culture is becoming more prevalent than submission to the Bible. We also see women being allowed to lead worship services, teach men in adult Sunday school classes and even "preach" in PCA churches. Where will it end? Only the Lord knows. But if these men are consistent with the hermeneutic that they have adopted, then they will find themselves or their disciples advocating the same thing that we see in the neo-orthodox denominations of our day. Here the position is purported that there is no distinction between men and women in the church or in the home, in spite of Scripture (Genesis 1,2,and 3,; 1Timothy 2,3, and 5; Proverbs 31; Ephesians 5). The Lord God has given a glorious work to men and women to serve the Lord together. Although they do not labor in the same roles, they do complement each other as they work together as a team. The neo-orthodox position is not God's design, however politically correct it may be. The RPCUS believes that the Scripture and not the whims of a godless culture must be the rule. The RPCUS unashamedly seeks to live by the Word of God in the roles of men and women. That means no woman may hold the office of deacon or elder or may lead men in teaching and public worship. There are no elders advocating, let alone practicing such things in the RPCUS. This is why I want to join the RPCUS.

Christian Education. In distinction to the PCA, where the seeds of rebellion against God are being sown, nurtured and watered, the officers of the RPCUS believe, preach and practice the Covenant in the Christian nurture of our children. Malachi 4:6 declares, "And He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse." When a person is converted, one of the first things that needs to take place is the application of the Gospel to his family. The home must be brought under the sway of Jesus Christ and His saving power. If the church of the Lord Jesus is going to prosper, if we would see this culture turned back from the brink of destruction and disaster, if the church is to be made strong and vibrant again, then it must be filled with families that are strong, solid, covenantal families under the rule of the Lord Jesus Christ. While everyone ought to give their children a distinctly Christian Education, an elder must. (See Ephesians 6:4 and Deuteronomy 6:4-8, 1 Timothy 3:1-7.) A distinctly Christian Education is where either: 1) the parents are exercising their responsibility to teach the children the fear of the Lord directly; or 2) are delegating that responsibility to someone in a good Christian school who will give their child an education based upon the Bible, focusing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and bringing every thought captive to Him. In the PCA we have men who say, "Yes, we want our young people to be trained and taught to have a Christian worldview." Yet they see no problem turning these young people over to the public school system of the day. This system is based upon the premise that you don't need Jesus Christ and the Bible to know truth. Proverbs 1:7, Colossians 2:3-4. Romans 1:18-32 reveals God's assessment of so-called neutral thinking that leaves God and His Redeemer out of the equation of truth. Through instruction and personal example, the elders must show their congregations how to fulfill the great commission. A fundamental way they do this through giving their children a distinctivly Christian Education. How can it be that men who are elders in the PCA could be so blind as to think that the public school system is good and acceptable in the sight of our covenant God? Modern public education clearly repudiates Proverbs 1:7 ("The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.") and Colossians 2:3 ("in Christ Himself are hidden all of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."). The commands of Scripture are plain concerning the teaching of children, (Deuteronomy 6:4-25 and Ephesians 6:4). How can elders deny such plain Scripture? Yes, we want to reach out to people who do not yet understand these things. Yes, we want to work with people where they are as they come to the Lord Christ. However, we must begin with the elders holding up the standard of God's Word. Martin Luther said, "I am much afraid that schools will prove to be the great gates of hell unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures, engraving them upon the hearts of youth. I advise no one to place his child where the scriptures do not reign paramount. Every institution in which men are not increasingly occupied with the Word of God must become corrupt." This denial of the covenant by God's people, especially the elders in the PCA, is a tragedy, but praise God He is raising up a denomination full of elders who bow to the authority of God and his Word. The RPCUS is a denomination that is not ashamed of the God-given goal of every Christian, not only for individuals but also for our children. (Joshua 24:15 - "but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord;" 2 Corinthians 10:5 - "We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of Christ, and we are taking every thought captive to Christ"). It is the practice of every elder in the RPCUS to give his children a distinctly Christian Education.

Numerous other examples of the commitment of the RPCUS to be true to the Scripture include:1) The RPCUS believes and proclaims the application of the law of God in every realm of life. [See Romans 13 and the Westminster Standards, application of OT law to every realm of life, personal family church civil etc. See the exposition of the ten commandments in the WLC Q&A 91-154 and the 19th Chapter of the WCF.( There is a growing antagonism to the law of God in the PCA.)] 2) The RPCUS not only says it is Presbyterian, but it also practices Biblical church government. We are Presbyterian not congregational, or hierarchical in our view of church government. (The PCA is increasingly becoming more congregationalist and hierarchical. There have been recent rulings that higher courts may not determine the rulings or the makeup of the lower courts. Also, the permanent committees and agencies of the church are functioning more like boards and autonomous self-determining bodies.) 3) The RPCUS will not allow practicing Masons to serve as elders in any of its churches. The PCA, however, has numerous elders who are also Masons. 4) The RPCUS stands against the unbiblical practices and philosophy of the "anything goes mentality" of the church growth movement. (The PCA has churches that use clowns, "baseball Sunday", and dance classes on Sunday afternoon to attract people to the Gospel). 5) The RPCUS uses the qualifications of the Bible to assess church planters and missionaries. (The PCA requires her church planters and missionaries to pass a secular humanistic psychological test to be ‘qualified' with the blessing of the hierarchy of Atlanta.); 6) The RPCUS is committed to the purity and the peace of the church and practices loving biblical discipline. (Today we see a hesitation and many times the outright refusal of the modern church, including the PCA, to practice loving Biblical church discipline for the glory of Christ, for the safe-keeping of the rest of the flock, and for the reclamation of the offending brother.) The RPCUS stands with Jesus and the Apostles upon the Word of God in this practice, see Matthew 18:15ff and 1 Corinthians 5:1ff.

True To The Reformed Faith. Martin Luther once said, "If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that one point." The reformers were not ashamed of any part of the Bible. They proclaimed the whole counsel of God. They declared Jesus Christ as the focus of Scripture, and in His face they preached the whole counsel of God. All 66 books of the Bible teach us of Jesus and His saving power, of His rule for faith and life. The Reformers summarized the main teachings of Scripture in the historic creeds especially the Westminster Standards. The RPCUS is not ashamed to believe and preach all these doctrines. The PCA has a growing minority of men who will preach through the Scriptures and the Standards for fear that they will not be palatable enough for the appetite of the people in the pews. The length of sermons is a good indication of the spiritual plight of many elders in the PCA. There is also a lack of desire for the bread of heaven by the people in the pew. When a 10-15 minute sermonett suffices, you see an impoverished people. Hosea 4:6. It has been said that such ‘sermonettes' will only produce ‘Christianettes'. As a result, we see a country full of shallow superficial ‘Christianettes' who are taking our country into the realm of darkness at breakneck speed. Praise God for a denomination like the RPCUS. Not ashamed to stand with Luther, Calvin, Knox, with the Apostles, with those who love the Word, the Sovereign God and His revealed will, His very Word the Bible!

True to the Great Commission. The RPCUS believes the great commission according to Scripture (Matthew 28:18). First, she believes that Jesus is the reigning King upon His throne. The One who sends us to preach the Word is Great. The scope is great. We are sent with the message of life to dead sinners, see Ephesians 2 and Ezekiel 37. Only Jesus Christ can and will save His lost sheep. The Father draws all His elect to Christ by his Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel. The RPCUS believes WLC Q&A # 191 and the power of God to accomplish all His good promises concerning the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the earth. The Lord has sent us to disciple all the nations. Did He send us on a fool's errand? No. The Bible indeed give us great promises of the Lord yet bringing a great harvest, not only of individuals to come and bow before the Lord Jesus, but whole nations running to the Savior and loving His law and walking in His ways (See Psalm 2, Psalm 22 Psalm 45,47,110, Isaiah 2, 9,11,52,53, 60,61, Matthew 13, Romans 16:20-27 and Revelation 15:3-4). The content of the Gospel is the glorious claims of our Lord Jesus Christ. Repent and believe is what we declare. Justification by grace through faith alone in Christ is the only source of our righteousness before the Sovereign of the universe. He grants repentance and faith to all His lost sheep. The content of the Gospel is also, "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Look at the preaching of the great herald of Messiah, John the Baptist, in Luke 3:18-20. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is focused on the person and work of Christ and also speaks the whole counsel of God from the whole of Scripture to the whole of life! There is not a single area of life that is is excepted from the sovereign claims of Jesus Christ. Not only a person's heart and mind, but also his entire being is obligated to serve Jesus. His family, his business, his money, his time, his culture, the institutions, and the civil government ought to be laid as a living sacrifice at the feet of Jesus by people who love and embrace Jesus as their King and Savior. This is what the apostles preached. This is the Gospel according to Scripture. The RPCUS believes and spreads this Gospel. This is why I want to join the RPCUS.

Psalm 11:3-6 says "If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?" It then shows us the Lamb upon His throne. He is the One to whom we look to rebuild the foundations. It is time to start rebuilding. By the grace of God the old foundation is being laid again for the house of God in this land. I believe that the time for me to work for reformation in my present denomination is drawing to a close. We ought to do all within our power to hand down to our children and grandchildren a faithful bride. It is time to build upon the Rock of Ages and His Word, the Bible, to see the church revived and made strong again. May He grant reformation to His bride in our day. He is on the throne. He is at work building His Kingdom. It is with confidence in the One who said that He would build His church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it that I take my stand with Martin Luther, who once reportedly said, "Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me". It is because of these reasons that I joyfully look forward to joining with my brothers and sisters in the RPCUS in humble obedience to my triune God.

True To The Scriptures, The Reformed Faith, And The Great Commission. It still is a great motto, this motto that was prominently displayed in the beginning of the PCA. It is my prayer that our Lord will bring revival and reformation to the church of the Lord Jesus Christ in these United States. May the PCA repent and return to her first love. It is also my prayer that until she turns from her wanderings in the wilderness, He will keep the fire of His Gospel burning in the pulpits and in the hearts of the RPCUS. May He use her to fan into flames the spark of revival and reformation that burns in His faithful bride. May His Spirit send His fire to sweep over this entire nation and beyond. May He give grace to many of my brothers who would despise the day of small beginnings, "Not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord."

Source: http://www.rpcus.com/?id=WhyJoinRPCUS

calmcoolandelected said:

Thanks for the references, I will try to read up on this subject over the next couple of days.

CC&E

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Have you had a chance to do any more research on this yet?

And how excitedly he embraced that small denomination, in which I'm sure he'll have plenty of influence.

Me, I'd rather seek unity with the people Christ told me to seek it with.

Frankly, I've read about the controversies roiling that presbytery in P.I.N.S. Too bad. Too bad also that Mr. Johnson thought so little of his vows as to put in that first paragraph. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of the Larger Catechism would find it an offense -- a sin -- to violate the Commandment on this, much less his vows.

As a member of a church which also left the PCA, I'm happy not being in the RPCUS.

HamletsChoice said:

Have you had a chance to do any more research on this yet?

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No, I haven't had the time to date. I am a caregiver to an aging parent, a homeschool Mom, etc, etc, etc. I wanted to ask a few questions because I know people who know Carolyn James personally. I would like to get some opinions from folks who may know more about the whole feminism issue in the PCA. As I said, I haven't really heard anything about it but that doesn't mean it isn't an issue.

No denomination here on earth is perfect. My husband and I have been members of the PCA since 1985 and we do our best to serve God, others and seek the peace and purity of the church. He also feels strongly about the membership committments we have made to the local church and the denomination and to date, we have determined to work within the system whenever we have had any "issues". Often, it is not pretty, usually downright ugly at times but we feel called to do what God has called us to do.

CC&E

calmcoolandelected said:

No, I haven't had the time to date....

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Just curious.

heymikey80 said:

And how excitedly he embraced that small denomination, in which I'm sure he'll have plenty of influence.

Me, I'd rather seek unity with the people Christ told me to seek it with.

Frankly, I've read about the controversies roiling that presbytery in P.I.N.S. Too bad. Too bad also that Mr. Johnson thought so little of his vows as to put in that first paragraph. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of the Larger Catechism would find it an offense -- a sin -- to violate the Commandment on this, much less his vows.

As a member of a church which also left the PCA, I'm happy not being in the RPCUS.

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I guess he thought compromise and toleration of sin "a greater sin."

HamletsChoice said:

I guess he thought compromise and toleration of sin "a greater sin."

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i find it sad that an atheist sums up the issue best

The chapter is called Creationist Fallacies.
He is discussing Fallacy 2: Scientific Discussions are a sign of internal crisis.

From a religious fundamentalist standpoint, there cannot be waffling or uncertainty in the world: Everything is clear, down to the most minute details. Indeed, when disputes over religious matters arise, the behavior of mainstream and fundamentalist denominations is, by and large, significantly different. Whereas most Christian denominations, for example, recognize that many theological questions are difficult and depend on subjective interpretations of Scripture, fundamentalist groups splinter over very minor points of doctrine, precisely because they see any form of disagreement as a sign of fatal corruption.

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from:

Denying Evolution: Creationism, Scientism, and the Nature of Science by Massimo Pigliucci


the nature of the split P's soup that we call our church home has bothered me for many years. When discussing the issue with friends i always point out the division between North and Rushdoony as an exemplar of how Presbyterians seem to disagree, disagreably and with great nastiness in many cases.
The question is why such underlying anger and just plain meaniness? it took reading this quotation several times for me to realize that this is the right answer. We see all doctrinal divisions as either right or wrong in absolute MORAL terms. and since to be morally wrong is a bad thing, we can not deal with divisions but separate, calling it separation from evil to avoid being tainted from it.

there really has to be a better way.
btw thanks. i wanted to get this quote into my split P's essay. this will supply the effort.

btw.
that is one of the extraordinary differences i find in Machen that i did not see in McIntire at the time he split the OPC, nor in many of those who are instrumental in modern split P's soup creation. Machen was genuinely sorry to have been forced out, he really thought, i believe that he would convince enough conservative Presbyters to uphold his position at GA and reverse what was obviously an administrative coup.

There is something wrong about the attitude that makes all these splits so common and so personality based. Pigliucci has certainly put his finger on what is the big problem however, all discussions of doctrine are moralized and absolutized in such a way that either compromise or disagreement is impossible.

rmwilliamsll said:

There is something wrong about the attitude that makes all these splits so common and so personality based. Pigliucci has certainly put his finger on what is the big problem however, all discussions of doctrine are moralized and absolutized in such a way that either compromise or disagreement is impossible.

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I disagree, I think many denominations are healthy and keeps us from tyranny. They "check and balance" each other.

HamletsChoice said:

I disagree, I think many denominations are healthy and keeps us from tyranny. They "check and balance" each other.

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the big problem is that denominationalism strike at the heart of the major metaphor of the church-the seamless body of Christ, stressing unity.

a more minor secondary problem is that it denies the "tightness" or "necessity of submitting" to Presbytery. I don't know how exactly to explain it, but i'll try.

We seem to be able to catch sexual and financial sins ok in the church. We are an absolute failure when it comes to doctrinal sins. God's intention for the church is that Presbytery is the church for our elders, it is their peer group, those to whom they are mutually submissive. For someone to leave the church, means that they value their opinion over the opinion expressed by the Presbytery, thus breaking that submission requirement.

the way we split is not healthy but an expression of individualism and a low understanding of the essentialness of the church.


outside of the church there is no ordinary means of salvation.

if you would not have the church as your mother then you can not have God as your father.

the big issue is how we construct both individual and church lists of priorities. we seem to put personal doctrinal opinion higher than submission to our elders.


since there is no relationship between our denominations there is no checks and balances, this is just wishful thinking. it is however an important part of being a Presbyterian.

rmwilliamsll said:

the big problem is that denominationalism strike at the heart of the major metaphor of the church-the seamless body of Christ, stressing unity.

a more minor secondary problem is that it denies the "tightness" or "necessity of submitting" to Presbytery. I don't know how exactly to explain it, but i'll try.

We seem to be able to catch sexual and financial sins ok in the church. We are an absolute failure when it comes to doctrinal sins. God's intention for the church is that Presbytery is the church for our elders, it is their peer group, those to whom they are mutually submissive. For someone to leave the church, means that they value their opinion over the opinion expressed by the Presbytery, thus breaking that submission requirement.

the way we split is not healthy but an expression of individualism and a low understanding of the essentialness of the church.


outside of the church there is no ordinary means of salvation.

if you would not have the church as your mother then you can not have God as your father.

the big issue is how we construct both individual and church lists of priorities. we seem to put personal doctrinal opinion higher than submission to our elders.


since there is no relationship between our denominations there is no checks and balances, this is just wishful thinking. it is however an important part of being a Presbyterian.

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You're not going to honestly going to tell me you wouldn't split from your church if they said they were changing their position on creationism to adopt a YEC worldview because all other views are heretical, are you?

Denominations and new churches are a check on tyranny, and established church order and elders are a check on mobocracy. Stressing either one over the other creates distortion.

You're not going to honestly going to tell me you wouldn't split from your church if they said they were changing their position on creationism to adopt a YEC worldview because all other views are heretical, are you?

Denominations and new churches are a check on tyranny, and established church order and elders are a check on mobocracy. Stressing either one over the other creates distortion.

my church is YECist. both my Pastors who i hold in high regard are outspoken YECists.
i don't talk about the issue at church, AFAIK there are only 2 people at church who know i am not YECist other than my wife.

to even bring up the issue in church is to break my promise as a member to cherish the unity and peace of the church.

to split from the church is apostasy and schismatic, it is sinful under all circumstances. the only issue is if remaining is more sinful than to leave. Machen was thrown out he did not leave. Likewise leaving is only a prerogative of elders(under the rebellion of the lesser magistrates rule), since i am only a church member i have no right to leave. or once i've become a member to switch churches. Now if the church disciplined me for being not-YEC i would be thrown out, a different situation entirely.

i hold the principle of the peace and unity of the church in higher regard than i do for my own individual opinions, which in light of the church's position are divisive.

new churches are a check on tyranny
nonsense, new churches are sinful expressions of individual personalities and the refusal to listen to the brethren. denominationalism is one of the few really good points that an agnostic has against the church, we don't live what we preach. There is one church, the seamless body of Christ, and we allow sin to split and render that testimony of God's work in the world questionable.

this is why perhaps 1/3 of the members of the PCUSA are as conservative as any PCA member, why the OPC has never grown numberically. why split P's soup has 37 denominations on my current list, just conservative and in the US.

sin is sin, we ought to admit it, strive to fix it and not make nonsense excuses for it.


imho, when we moved here, if an OPC is available i am obligated to join it, if not then the PCA(since the OPC had voted to join with it), then EPC. i've never had to look further than that. now that we are members of the PCA, if we moved we would be obligated to stay in this denomination. the unity of the church is to be taken seriously and highly regarded. i have only to think of Calvin's stand to be reminded of how important it is.

church hoping and loose denominational affiliation is the outgrowth of our cultures accent on individual judgement and a misapplication of democratic ideals.

rmwilliamsll said:

You're not going to honestly going to tell me you wouldn't split from your church if they said they were changing their position on creationism to adopt a YEC worldview because all other views are heretical, are you?

Denominations and new churches are a check on tyranny, and established church order and elders are a check on mobocracy. Stressing either one over the other creates distortion.

my church is YECist. both my Pastors who i hold in high regard are outspoken YECists.

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You're not answering my question. I asked you if your pastor said your views were heretical and you disagreed would you stay in the church?

rmwilliamsll said:

new churches are a check on tyranny
nonsense, new churches are sinful expressions of individual personalities and the refusal to listen to the brethren.

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That is ridiculous! Are you suggesting that all pastors, elders and members who have have formed new churches are in sin?

HamletsChoice said:

I guess he thought compromise and toleration of sin "a greater sin."

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Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

Have you reflected on this "greater sin" argument? It is patently opposed to Scripture, the Standards Tazewell split to uphold, and even the very things this pastor is saying he finds so wonderful about the RPCUS.
And Presbyterian theology.

"151. Sins receive their aggravations 2. From the parties offended: ... against superiors, men of eminency, and such as we stand especially related and engaged unto; against any of the saints" LC 151

You're essentially saying that being tolerant on certain issues where even Scripture is not definite (e.g., women as deacons; YEC) allows someone to attack those in authority in the Body of Christ as instituted by the Christ through the Spirit of God.

All this splitting and subsplitting a a patently separatist -- and thus non-Presbyterian -- Lockean (cf. John Locke) and unScriptural approach to conflict within the church. Tazewell split with the PCA. All well and good according to PCA's church order; but humility and devotion to the Westminster Standards should have instructed them as to the morality of how they responded. If their position was to attack the PCA once free of their authority, that is not only sin, it is a direct violation of the very Standards they seek to uphold.

HamletsChoice said:

You're not answering my question. I asked you if your pastor said your views were heretical and you disagreed would you stay in the church?

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i have no right to leave once i take membership vows. they can kick me out, but i can't leave. that is what submission to authority means.

That is ridiculous! Are you suggesting that all pastors, elders and members who have have formed new churches are in sin?

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yes, the only issue is if it would have been a greater sin to stay. schism is sin. the church can kick them out (like Machen), the church can abandon the faith and cease to be a church (the reformation argument about the RC), but to leave a legitimate church is schism, plain and simple. Unity and peace in the church is a greater priority than the doctrines they disagree with are.

rmwilliamsll said:

i have no right to leave once i take membership vows. they can kick me out, but i can't leave. that is what submission to authority means.

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This sounds more like relinquishment of biblical responsibility to reject unbiblical commands. Our vows are to obey Jesus Christ and God's Law not the laws of men. Under your rather surprising scenerio, when told to drink kool-aid you would merely respond "sure, what flavor?"

Are you suggesting that all pastors, elders and members who have have formed new churches are in sin?

rmwilliamsll said:

yes...

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Simply unbelievable! Ok.....uh.....are you attending the only true church of God on Earth then?

HamletsChoice said:

This sounds more like relinquishment of biblical responsibility to reject unbiblical commands. Our vows are to obey Jesus Christ and God's Law not the laws of men. Under your rather surprising scenerio, when told to drink kool-aid you would merely respond "sure, what flavor?"

Are you suggesting that all pastors, elders and members who have have formed new churches are in sin?



Simply unbelievable! Ok.....uh.....are you attending the only true church of God on Earth then?

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why propose unrealistic scenarios in order to try to discredit an idea? who's talking poison laced kool-aid? do you expect your elders to act that way? nor do i? my elders love and respect the Scriptures, pray daily to follow God's will and righteously guide the church. why discredit them and their godly efforts with stupid examples.

my elders antagonize over worship service hymns, discussion and pray together over the words and the origins of the tunes. is poison laced kool aid really a worry? perhaps you are projecting from those elders you know, it is not a description of mine.

i said it before, i'll continue to repeat it. schism is a sin. to leave the church is a sin. the only question is if staying is a greater sin. the nature of Christ, the principles of the Nicean creed are the essential elements of the faith. where the word is truely preached, the sacraments truely administered, and godly discipline enforced, there is Christ's body, to separate from it over issues less important that the unity and peace of the body is sin.

can i be any more specific?
The OPC, the PCA, the EPC are part of the body of Christ to separate from them is sin. period.

rmwilliamsll said:

can i be any more specific?
The OPC, the PCA, the EPC are part of the body of Christ to separate from them is sin. period.

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Yes pls, are all other churches and denominations in sin?

HamletsChoice said:

Yes pls, are all other churches and denominations in sin?

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i have no first hand experience with any other churches, the invisible church cuts across denominational boundaries. the particulars of this boundary is well above my pay grade.