The original sin

Theowne · Feb 27, 2006

S Walch said:
All but Israel in the Middle East are Islamic to be honest - just look at hte "Maps and facts don't lie" thread.

And seeing as though Fares comes from the Middle east, I think he knows what he's on about.

My point was he used actions of Islamic nations to degrade Islam but then got upset when someone used Christian nations to represent Christianity.

S Walch · Feb 27, 2006

America/Europe AREN'T Christian nations, which is his point.

Europe/America are Secular nations, not Christian ones.

Islam_mulia · Feb 27, 2006

S Walch said:
All but Israel in the Middle East are Islamic to be honest - just look at hte "Maps and facts don't lie" thread.

And seeing as though Fares comes from the Middle east, I think he knows what he's on about.

Whenever I read the postings from S Walch and Fares, I felt compelled to reply bec of the shallowness in their reasonings and their inability to reason.

Syria, Jordan and Egypt (to cite some examples) are mostly populated with Muslims, but the govt do not necessarily follow Islamic Sharia law.

LightOfEyes · Feb 27, 2006

Electra said:
Thanks for your response. But may I ask few more questions on this.

If Allah/God does not need humans to worship him, why has He made their purpose to only worship him?

Peace to you brother.

Our present life is only a trial preparation for the next realm of existence. This life is a test for each one of us, so we should all get prepared for the hereafter life.

On the Day of Judgment, this world we're living in will come to an end and, the dead will be resurrected for judgment by God.

This day will be the beginning of a life that will never end. It's the day when all people will be rewarded by God according to their beliefs and deeds. Those who die as believers, (believing that “There is no true god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah&#8221 and are Muslim will be rewarded on that day and will be admitted to Paradise forever, as Allah says:

"And those who believe and do good deeds, they are dwellers of Paradise, they dwell therein forever."
(Qur'an, 2:82)

Whereas those who die while not believing that “There is no true god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah” or are not Muslim will lose Paradise forever and will be sent to Hellfire, as God says:

"Those who have disbelieved and died in disbelief, the earth full of gold would not be accepted from any of them if it were offered as a ransom. They will have a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers."
(Qur'an, 3:91)

After having sent the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to call people to Islam, Allah does not accept adherence to any religion other than Islam. Allah is our only Creator and Sustainer.

Allah created for us whatever is on the earth. All the blessings and good things we have are from Him. So after all this, when someone rejects belief in Allah, His Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), or His religion of Islam, it is just that he or she be punished in the Hereafter. Actually, the main reason after which we were brought to life on earth is to worship Allah alone and obey Him.

This life we live today is a very short life, and will come to an end at one day nobody knows but Allah. The unbelievers on the Day of Judgment will think that the life they lived on earth was only a day or part of a day, as Allah has says:

He (Allah) will say, “How many years did you stay on the earth?” They will say: “We stayed a day or part of a day....”
(Qur'an, 23:112-113)

Allah also says:

"Did you then think that We had created you in jest (without any purpose), and that you would not be returned to Us (in the Hereafter)? So, God is exalted, the True King. None has the right to be worshipped but Him... "
(Qur'an, 23:115-116)

The life in the Hereafter is the real life, the life that lasts forever. It is not only spiritual, but physical as well. We will live there with our souls and bodies.

In comparing this world with the Hereafter, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said:

(The value of this world compared to that of the Hereafter is like what your finger brings from the sea when you put it in and then take it out.)

The meaning is that, the value of this world compared to that of the Hereafter is like a few drops of water compared to the sea. Thus we should all get prepared for that day, compete in having Hasanat (good deed), for at the Day of Judgment no one, not even your mom, will be able to rescue you from Hell if your deeds were bad. As Allah says:

And Upon that Day, the wrongdoer shall bite at his hands and say: "Would that I had taken a Path with the Messenger".

As Muslims the worship is not only praying and fasting and other rites. we believe that everything we do is worshiping like work caring the children and so on but our intention shoul be in sake of Almighty Allah.

Hope this answered your question and got the point

Peace

LightOfEyes · Feb 27, 2006

Fares said:
If they open a sex club in palestine you will be the first one in, so lets not be hypocrites .

Thank you for insulting me, you assumed that because you accept that for you and you would do so.

LightOfEyes · Feb 27, 2006

Orontes said:
Hello,

You may be interested to know that the concept of Original Sin is not an inclusive Christian teaching. It is exclusive to the Latin Western approach. Eastern Christianity: Eastern Orthodoxy, the Copts etc. do not hold to any notion of heritable sin. Adam is not considered reprobate and infants are seen as innocent.

No wonder, christians's denominations have different interprets even in the concept of God. they contradict each others.

LightOfEyes · Feb 27, 2006

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
I find this much more rational than the normal versions of Christianity. Yet the partner thingy hardly appears reasonable. But for that, the world would have been very peaceful with respect to Islam. Each religion said that its God did not like partners or tolerated anything other his worship and the result has been too much conflict and hatred in the world.

Peace to you.

Osiris · Feb 27, 2006

Hi LightOfEyes,

LightOfEyes said:
First, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sin”. Adam’s sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

Makes more sense than christianity... if God is a god of justice... then punishing someone because of what their father did is nothing which would be deemed a just judgement.

Second, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.”

Would this mean everyone is perfect?

Third, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.” (Az-Zumar: 53-54)

Does Islam believe/accept stories within the Old Testament or the Jewish scriptures were blood sacrifices are required?

Fourth, Islam teaches that every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad can save us; they are only capable of saving themselves through God’s grace. In the words of the Qur’an: “Whoever commits a sin commits it only against himself. Allah is Knowing, Wise.” (An-Nisa': 111); “Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It shall be requited for whatever good and whatever it has done.” (Al-Baqarah: 286); “Each soul earns only on its own account, nor does any laden (soul) bear another’s load.” (Al-An`am: 164) “He who is rightly guided, it is for himself; and he who goes astray, it is to his own detriment. No soul can bear another’s burden.” (Al-Isra': 15)

I think this is something almost similar in christianity... where the only difference is in Christianity's unjust judgement of God in punishing us for the action of Adam (original sin).

Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.” (Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.” (Al-Baqarah: 186)
So the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God’s message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life."

So, if one could directly approach God without an intermediary of a prophet... then, Mohammad, Jesus, Moses and others wouldn't... aren't necessary.

One would know God exists just the same way it was revealed to Moses, Mohammad, Jesus, etc... but this is not the case.

Peace be upon you all.

Thanks LightOfEyes... may peace be upon you at all times.

LightOfEyes · Feb 27, 2006

Theowne said:
My point was he used actions of Islamic nations to degrade Islam but then got upset when someone used Christian nations to represent Christianity.

Peace to you.

yaqovzadeek · Feb 28, 2006

Ya fares bala hemar why do you like to contradict yourself.

Fares said:
Where is the debate issue ?

Mohammed again did not understand a story from the Bible obviously . .

Prophet mohamed Did not read the Bible.Why would he have to read and beleive Matthew, mark, Luke and John when even Christian scholars have doubts about their authenticity.When allah Gave him the truth. The book with no doubts

Fares said:
If God forgave Adam and Eve what the hell are doing here ? They were banished from heaven because of the apple sin ..

so are you saying GOD is not forgiving.What Kind of a Cruel GOD do you beleive in.He cannot forgive his creation who have sinned and repent afterwards.

Fares said:
If God really forgave them we should all be in heaven . Your Qu`ran has a lake of logic . .

So again you do not beleive in the Mercy of GOD then you claim Jesus was GOD and how he forgave his enemies now you are saying GOD did not forgive Adam and eve.Under what stone did you crawl from. You love to slander Islam so much that you do not even listen or think of what you are saying. If GOD did not forgive them then why should he accorduing to the bible forgive those who supposedly Crucified Jesus:
Lu 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
I don't think Jesus Contradicts himself.It is you who lies and contradicts

there are loads of proofs from your bible that GOD forgives those who repent.

Fares said:
Sounds nice . But you have a contradiction here . IF God is so mercifull and forgives us for all our sins, why do you punish thiefs by cutting their hands, aduletry by floging them with hundred stripes or execute when they kill , or kill them when they convert to christianity ?
And Jesus was the last sacrifice . .

you might have to ask that Question to you bible scholars cos if it is a contardiction then the same things are found in your own Bible so thank you for confirming that they are contradictions.

Leviticus
20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

20:27

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deutronomy
13:6
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:8
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die;

This is from the Bible the Book you so call HOLY, so do you still agree thyey are contradictions.

Fares said:
Jesus died for the sin of Adam and Eve , desobeying God . Everything else we do we are responsable for it ..

Did the Prehistoric Animals die for the sin that was to come too.they inhabited the earth before man.

Fares said:
Mohammed did not bring something new with this verses but as always he rejects Jesus . More proof to satan great work . .

too true he did not, he came to confirm what all other prophets before brought.Beleif in the ONE GOD, not belief in MAN GOD. It shiows how you lie about Jesus yourself , the prophet mohamed had so many sayings about the Prophet Jesus and all the time he praised him so stop lying go and do your homework and check the facts

Fares said:
Jesus is God . Approaching Jesus is approaching God .

Till this day i am still waiting for some smart ass Christian to provide evidence From jesus but until now not a single Christian could prove that Jesus said he was GOD.Just verses from others who said hewas GOD or thwe son of GOD but not from theman himself.What Kind of a GOD that does not tell you he is GOD.Look in the Quran Allah all over tells you who he is..
Peace
Yaqovzadeek
Aka James the Just

Fares · Feb 28, 2006

Thank you for insulting me, you assumed that because you accept that for you and you would do so.

ROLF.
In Israel we have sex clubs yet I never went .

No wonder, christians's denominations have different interprets even in the concept of God. they contradict each others.

2 things that seem to contradict each other maybe in fact completing each other in reality . I leaned this in mathematical logic .

My point was he used actions of Islamic nations to degrade Islam but then got upset when someone used Christian nations to represent Christianity.

France, USA, Germany, etc... are christian ? lol .
Egypte, Jordan and Syria are Islamic countries .

Whenever I read the postings from S Walch and Fares, I felt compelled to reply bec of the shallowness in their reasonings and their inability to reason.

Nice argument Mr.I am not a shallow one .
Egypt looked up someone for converting to christianity in a mental hospital and said to him :" we will let you go as soon as you convert back to Islam " , and you are telling me its not a islamic country ?

LightOfEyes · Feb 28, 2006

Osiris said:
Hi LightOfEyes,
Makes more sense than christianity... if God is a god of justice... then punishing someone because of what their father did is nothing which would be deemed a just judgement.

Osiris said:
Would this mean everyone is perfect?.

No nobody is perfect except God, but the new babies are sinless have no sins they have nothing to do with Adams sin

Osiris said:
Does Islam believe/accept stories within the Old Testament or the Jewish scriptures were blood sacrifices are required?

No.

Osiris said:
So, if one could directly approach God without an intermediary of a prophet... then, Mohammad, Jesus, Moses and others wouldn't... aren't necessary

Osiris said:
One would know God exists just the same way it was revealed to Moses, Mohammad, Jesus, etc... but this is not the case.

Actually God send the prophets to guide people to worship him alone because people were worshiping idols and other creations that’s why God sent the prophets to guide people to him.
Now if people knew who the true God, they don’t need an intermediary, just what all they have to do is that to raise the hands to the sky and ask God to forgive them and ask him anything they need in this life and in the hereafter.

Osiris said:
Thanks LightOfEyes... may peace be upon you at all times.

And you brother, may God bless you and reward you the paradise.

LightOfEyes · Feb 28, 2006

Fares said:
ROLF.
France, USA, Germany, etc... are christian ? lol .
Egypte, Jordan and Syria are Islamic countries .

Ya Fares bela Jawad, you proud because France, USA, Germany are christian, what if Japan and china become more civilized and power than them you would convert to their religion.lol. realy you are Fares bela Jawad.

Fares · Feb 28, 2006

You have one hell of a lake of understanding .
You reply without knowing what I said .

Ya Fares bela Jawad, you proud because France, USA, Germany are christian, what if Japan and china become more civilized and power than them you would convert to their religion.lol. realy you are Fares bela Jawad

I will repeat slowly this time for you .
I ... said .... that .... ( are you still with me ? ) .... france ..... Usa ..... and ... Germany .... are .... not ... christians . Kapish ?

LightOfEyes · Feb 28, 2006

Fares said:
You have one hell of a lake of understanding .
You reply without knowing what I said .

I will repeat slowly this time for you .
I ... said .... that .... ( are you still with me ? ) .... france ..... Usa ..... and ... Germany .... are .... not ... christians . Kapish ?

lol, So what they are?!

and who told you that Egypte, Jordan and Syria are Islamic countries?!
The people are but government we do not think so.

Fares · Feb 28, 2006

lol, So what they are?!

I dont know, they are atheist .

and who told you that Egypte, Jordan and Syria are Islamic countries?!
The people are but government we do not think so.

Really ? Lol the azhar is in Egypt .

LightOfEyes · Feb 28, 2006

Fares said:
I dont know, they are atheist .

Really ? Lol the azhar is in Egypt .

Lol, tha AZhar is no more than like university.
its not government.

S Walch · Feb 28, 2006

LightOfEyes said:
lol, So what they are?!

They are SECULAR COUNTRIES - I stated that on this page, 2nd post from the top!

They are NOT Christin countries - There is NO CHRISTIAN NATION ON THIS PLANET.

Get that into your head RIGHT now!

I'm getting sick of having to repeat that over and over. Europe/America are NOT Christian countries - This is the last time I will tell you of this FACT.

*tries to calm down*

Eudaimonist · Feb 28, 2006

How are you defining "Christian country"?

Sweden's monarch has to be of a specific denomination of Christianity to be monarch. Sweden has a state church. Arguably, Sweden is a Christian nation.

Of course, there are secular elements as well. But the dividing line isn't that obvious.

S Walch · Feb 28, 2006

Comparing an "Islamic Country" such as Saudia Arabia to most western countries - you really can't say that there's a Christian Nation in the West.

England is the same - you have to be an Anglican to be a monach, and the Church of England is the Countries state church.

But coming from England - it is most certainly NOT a Christian Nation.

The original sin

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