The number one bugger for creationists: C

Lonnie · Sep 7, 2004

"his means that God is deceiving us to believe that some stars that never existed did or that the stars we are seeing never actually looked like we see them now (basically, God is showing us a picture show of things that never happened an is still doing it)."

Well not every one is decieved, only evolutionists.
Sorry that was a rather a cruel thing to say...

But as you all know, people decieve them selves. Like about evolution, they either trick themselves(or eachother):
a) think God Created every without means of evolution
b) think things evolved with Gods help
c) think things evolved by chance

mhess13 · Sep 7, 2004

Nathan Poe said:
God raised a man (several men) from the dead for a noble purpose.

God created a young universe that looks mature to decieve us.

Nice God you got there... real trustworthy.

No one is deceiving anyone! You guys are so committed to the evolution LIE that you won't even consider God creating a mature universe.

Listen to yourselves, how is God creating a mature universe any more ridiculous than the "big bang"?

aeroz19 · Sep 7, 2004

Lonni, I once thought as you do. However, just remember that the world is a much more complex place than you might have been led to believe.

Keep your mind open to other ideas. When you are questioning something, don't try to suppress it. Look for answers. Ask questions. Just stay open. It will do you good.

Aeschylus · Sep 7, 2004

aeroz19 said:
So, did this event occur 11 million years ago, or 6000 years ago, or more recently than 6000 years ago?

Lets say it occured 5000 years ago. How did that light reach us now, when it is so far away and light only travels at 300,000km/sec?

Distance to the supernova:
11 million light years
= 11 million of the units of distance that light travels in a year
= (11 million) of these --> (300,000km/sec)(60sec/min)(60min/hr)(24hrs/day)(365.25days/yr)
=(11 million) times (9.46726x10^12km/yr)
=1.0414008x10^20 km

Wow, that's over a trillion kilometers! Can someone please ckeck my numbers? Thanks. I am sensing that something is wrong with my data.

Looks correct to me, 1 light year is a huge distance.

Now, if this event occured 5000 years ago, how do we explain how we saw it? Well, we could say that light traveled really fast, which means you have to prove that c has decayed and why.

Click to expand...

Speed of c:
(1.0414008x10^20 km)/5000yrs
=(2.0828016x10^16 km/yr)(1 yr/31557600 sec)
=6.6x10^8 km/sec
=2200 times faster than c today.

This means that c is decaying at a rate of 131,940 km/sec per year, if you look at it in a linear manner. However, this would mean that we would have noticed the decay, since it is so obvious a decay.

Have I effecively killed item number 2?

What you require is that:

∫c(t)dt = 1.0 x 10^20

t is time in years, c is a function of t and the integral is taken from 0 to 5000. and c(5000) = 9.5 x 10^12

If c(t) changes lineraly then what you find is that c must of been 15,000 times greater than it is today! Infact in order to recover rtthe fact that we don't c change in an obvious way today you'd probably need for c to decrease exponentially which would led to a, much, much, bigger intial value.

The real killer is when you consider sevreal stars of varying distance, you simply cannot have c vary in any signifcant way at all and get all the figures to work out.

HRE · Sep 7, 2004

mhess, try this one:

Would God ask us not to use our minds to observe our surroundings and try to understand them? Would he make the universe look mature to laugh at the silly phycists who love finding out more about the world around them?

Why make the universe look mature and then give us the minds to try to understand it at the same time? Is he playing silly buggers with us?

Aeschylus · Sep 7, 2004

mhess13 said:
No one is deceiving anyone! You guys are so committed to the evolution LIE that you won't even consider God creating a mature universe.

Listen to yourselves, how is God creating a mature universe any more ridiculous than the "big bang"?

Big bang theory is solid science and it's predictions can and have been tested, the assertion that God made a mature universe is completly unporvable and can only ever be a theological one.

Sopharos · Sep 7, 2004

Called the number, got directed to this thread.

Ad hockery is not Science.

Brahe · Sep 7, 2004

mhess13 said:
No one is deceiving anyone! You guys are so committed to the evolution LIE that you won't even consider God creating a mature universe.

Listen to yourselves, how is God creating a mature universe any more ridiculous than the "big bang"?

I had thought that Nathan Poe had explained it well enough, but I do so enjoy shoving your face in your mistakes, mhess13.

There is a difference between creating a universe that's "mature" enough to live is, and a universe with a false history. If god had created the universe last Thursday, but skipped over the vast epochs during which humans could not exist, that would be bizarre, but not deceptive. On the other hand, if god had created the universe last Thursday but filled it with evidence of events that never happened, that would be both bizarre and deceptive.

Imagine, if you will, that god created Adam. Now, perhaps god doesn't like changing diapers and toilet training, so god creates as an adult, capable of looking after himself. Like I mentioned, bizarre, but not dishonest. Now, let's say that god gives Adam a scar from an appendectomy that never really happened, adjusts the nose from a bar fight that never really happened, and fills Adam's memories from his days as a school boy that never really happened. Now this scenario most certainly requires a deceptive god. As Xenophanes remarked, if horses had hands they'd fashion gods in their own images.

The conclusion that the Earth and the universe are ancient is not drawn from biology, but rather geology and physics.

Last Thursdayism is ridiculous while the Big Bang is not. This is because Last Thursdayism is unfalsifiable and supernatural while the Big Bang is a well-confirmed scientific theory.

Logic · Sep 7, 2004

Lonnie said:
But as you all know, people decieve them selves. Like about evolution, they either trick themselves(or eachother):

Oh, thanks for that, I'm going to call my friends and tell them.

Lonnie said:
a) think God Created every without means of evolution

And made mountains of evidence to the contrary to decieve people who are curious enough to examine it.

Lonnie said:
b) think things evolved with Gods help

Perhaps, I think it could very well have happened that way.

Lonnie said:
c) think things evolved by chance

Or perhaps they evolved by tacos, or some other straw man. Evolution has no specific direction, but it's not random gobbilty goop either, natural selection is a very good evolutionary tool, not random chance or fish sticks or anything like that.

Brahe · Sep 7, 2004

Lonnie said:
Well not every one is decieced, only evolutionists.

I'll say! Creationists have the creation myths of a superstitious bunch of pre-scientific Middle Eastern goat-herders. Meanwhile, all evolutionists have is literal and figurative mountains of evidence. It's not even a close match.

If evidence mattered for anything, people would investigate anatomy and perform surgery instead of praying. If evidence mattered for anything, people would rely on physics to get to the Moon instead of praying. If evidence mattered for anything, building computers would involve understanding quantum mechanics instead of simply praying. Evidence...hah!

mhess13 · Sep 7, 2004

Sopharos said:
Called the number, got directed to this thread.

Ad hockery is not Science.

I probably shouldn't laugh since I'm the one being made fun of, but...

that was a good one

Sopharos · Sep 7, 2004

mhess13 said:
I probably shouldn't laugh since I'm the one being made fun of, but...

that was a good one

It is a scientific fact that you live up to 5 years longer if you laugh regularly.

mhess13 · Sep 7, 2004

Sopharos said:
It is a scientific fact that you live up to 5 years longer if you laugh regularly.

True!
Proverbs 17:22 (KJV)
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Arikay · Sep 7, 2004

A good example of why even christians should be against creationism. Here we see that some are willing to turn God into a deciever to protect their idea of creation (creationism). Before turning God into a deciever shouldn't we question ourselves first?

Mechanical Bliss · Sep 7, 2004

Brahe said:
There is a difference between creating a universe that's "mature" enough to live is, and a universe with a false history.

That is the fallacy of the mature earth argument as it applies to our planet. It means that there are decay products whose radioactive parents never existed, that there are fossils of organisms that never existed, tracks and burrows of organisms that never walked/burrowed there, and sedimentary rocks whose source never existed (among other problems). It's possible to have a so-called "mature earth" without containing a false record. That is why the argument is one of deception.

Nathan Poe · Sep 7, 2004

Lonnie said:
"his means that God is deceiving us to believe that some stars that never existed did or that the stars we are seeing never actually looked like we see them now (basically, God is showing us a picture show of things that never happened an is still doing it)."

Well not every one is decieced, only evolutionists.
Sorry that was a rather a cruel thing to say...

So every single scrap of evidence that so much as looks like an old universe is a product of self-delusion?

But as you all know, people decieve them selves. Like about evolution, they either trick themselves(or eachother):

a) think God Created every without means of evolution
b) think things evolved with Gods help
c) think things evolved by chance

a) is such pitiful grammar your meaning is lost.
b) Where's the trickery here?
c) is a strawman.

Nice tap dancing; want to try it to some music?

Nathan Poe · Sep 7, 2004

mhess13 said:
No one is deceiving anyone! You guys are so committed to the evolution LIE that you won't even consider God creating a mature universe.

Listen to yourselves, how is God creating a mature universe any more ridiculous than the "big bang"?

It's not a question of "ridiculous" (Argument from incredulity) but of honesty.

If we can't trust God to create a universe that is as old as He made it look, then His promises of salvation in the Bible aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Lie once, and your credibility is questionable.
Build an entire universe on a lie, and your credibility is shot.

But hey, He's your God, I'm sure you trust what He says, not what He does.

notto · Sep 7, 2004

mhess13 said:
No one is deceiving anyone! You guys are so committed to the evolution LIE that you won't even consider God creating a mature universe.

Listen to yourselves, how is God creating a mature universe any more ridiculous than the "big bang"?

If we are deceived, then it is because God chooses to decieve us with images of things that never were and a history that never was.

Can you explain why the images we have from the Hubble are all a false impression given by God? I choose to believe that God would not deceive us with his creation. We must have our interpretation of the Bible wrong because it conflicts with the creation which is the expression of the word.

In your view, God didn't only create a mature universe, God created one that is intentionally deciving and shows us a vision of the creation that never happened. We see stars that never existed and events such exploding stars that never existed in the first place.

This conflicts with the truth we should be able to find as we look at God's 'good' creation. I think this is poor theology and poor science. (and has nothing to do with evolution, you seem to be confusing your terms).

Polycarp1 · Sep 7, 2004

Lonnie said:
"his means that God is deceiving us to believe that some stars that never existed did or that the stars we are seeing never actually looked like we see them now (basically, God is showing us a picture show of things that never happened an is still doing it)."

Well not every one is decieced, only evolutionists.
Sorry that was a rather a cruel thing to say...

But as you all know, people decieve them selves. Like about evolution, they either trick themselves(or eachother):
a) think God Created every without means of evolution
b) think things evolved with Gods help
c) think things evolved by chance

Hmmm. Let's look at this. God never lies. But God created a Universe that appears for several reasons (sedimentary rock sequences, radioactive breakdowns, measurable parallaxes, red shift, etc.) to be far older than the date of 4000 BC that can be painstakingly calculated as the approximate date of Creation from the Biblical standards.

On the other hand, men convey truth through a variety of means. Jesus, for example, told parables. C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Jenkins and LaHaye are among Christian novelists. Fanny VanAlstyne Crosby and Charles Wesley wrote hymns. People ranging from David to T.S. Eliot have written poems.

There's nothing difficult in the idea that Genesis 1 is story or myth (in the anthropological sense, not the "falsehood" sense), conveying truth through easily grasped images rather than repertorial narration. And one of the key points of Genesis 1 is that God created the Sabbath -- He worked for six days and created the seventh for rest. Do you know how important the Sabbath is to Jewish piety? It's an image -- a way of saying that God Himself made the Sabbath as an integral part of Creation.

And if you accept the idea that Genesis 1 is true -- driving home important points about how God created, rather than when and for how long -- but true as Jesus's parables are true, rather than as the lead AP story on the wire is true, then you have a concept that recognizes God as Creator but allows for the evidence of His Creation to be testifying to the truth.

YEC doctrine calls God a liar. It's as simple as that. It says that He intentionally planted false evidence in His universe, knowing that it would mislead us into thinking the world is far older than it is.

My God is no liar. Rather, He is so totally wise and compassionate that He created a world that played out His plan over billions of years, each intricate part being caused by what went before in accordance with His plan.

bevets · Sep 7, 2004

Polycarp1 said:
Hmmm. Let's look at this. God never lies. But God created a Universe that appears for several reasons (sedimentary rock sequences, radioactive breakdowns, measurable parallaxes, red shift, etc.) to be far older than the date of 4000 BC that can be painstakingly calculated as the approximate date of Creation from the Biblical standards.

Polycarp1 said:
YEC doctrine calls God a liar. It's as simple as that. It says that He intentionally planted false evidence in His universe, knowing that it would mislead us into thinking the world is far older than it is.

My God is no liar.

It saddens me that theistic evos insist on associating God with lies. The crux of the issue is 'What has greater weight: intrepretation of the Bible or interpretation of the physical evidence' Consistent biblical interpretation supports a young earth. I choose sound biblical interpreation over atheist mythology.

The number one bugger for creationists: C

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Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.

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