The No-Kids-Allowed Movement - Prejudice much?

p.s. Criticizing people who are able to expose their children to culture and believe it is important is a bit quick to judge. It doesn't equal snobbery or elitism. My aunt and uncle were both educators and traveled each summer, with my cousin in tow. She has attended shows in London, traveled through other parts of Europe, and now resides in NYC and regularly takes in cultural arts events - but she is far from snobby or elitist.

Some of the most sophisticated adults I know - those that have a true love for the arts and fine dining; came from a childhood where they had no opportunity for exposure to "culture". But, their parents did teach them manners so no matter where they ended up in life- the trailer park or Park Ave. they would act like a decent human being in any situation- even if they didn't know what to order off a menu. And by contrast, I know several individuals that act like morons in public b/c they think they are the most important person there, treat others like dirt, belittle those that aren't as "cultured" as they are, and think "culture" is whatever emperor is being paraded with out his clothes at the moment; and they were exposed as children to many different venues and opportunities. So, I guess the most important thing to me is that my children know how to treat all people with kindness and that they themselves know how to act in any public place with manners no matter if it's new to them as an adult or not. And I have to know my children well enough as a parent and care enough about them and other people to know that when they run up to someone and stab them with a fork at a restaurant it's not ok to just let them or play it off like it was the cutest thing ever, or to be aware enough to not let them run around with a fork in the first place or know that they are tired and liable to act out so let's get takeout and eat at home or have a picnic outside somewhere so I don't frustrate my child further into acting out by requiring them to eat in a sit down place. Anyways, I think the restaurant in question in the original article is a good idea. They aren't making anyone starve; there are probably hundreds of alternatives with a family friendly atmosphere. This restaurant (which is a sport's bar, btw) gives one single choice for other people to choose. It's not that bad really. If you don't like the idea then don't go to the restaurant- go eat somewhere else. It's really that simple.

mina said:

Some of the most sophisticated adults I know - those that have a true love for the arts and fine dining; came from a childhood where they had no opportunity for exposure to "culture". But, their parents did teach them manners so no matter where they ended up in life- the trailer park or Park Ave. they would act like a decent human being in any situation. And by contrast, I know several individuals that act like morons in public b/c they think they are the most important person there, treat others like dirt, and think "culture" is whatever emperor is being paraded with out his clothes at the moment; and they were exposed as children to many different venues and opportunities. So, I guess the most important thing to me is that my children know how to treat all people with kindness and that they themselves know how to act in any public place. And I have to know my children well enough as a parent and care enough about them and other people to know that when they run up to someone and stab them with a fork at a restaurant it's not ok to just let them or play it off like it was the cutest thing ever, or to be aware enough to not let them run around with a fork in the first place or know that they are tired and liable to act out so let's get takeout and eat at home or have a picnic outside somewhere. Anyways, I think the restaurant in question in the original article is a good idea. They aren't making anyone starve; there are probably hundreds of alternatives with a family friendly atmosphere. This restaurant (which is a sport's bar, btw) gives one choice for other people to choose. It's not that bad really. If you don't like the idea then don't go to the restaurant. It's really that simple.

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To those commenting on this thread -

I first learned of the 'no kids allowed' movement yesterday on the internet. I have been researching abortion lately and the statistics since roe vs wade in the early 70's (50,000,000 reported abortions since the laws inception - a claim of 82% of abortions today are those of convenience). Do you think there could be a link between 'no kids allowed' and a diminishing value for children that may be affecting our societal view?

^^^AMEN

Behaved children today are the Exception not the rule.

I for one would Welcome No Kidds allowed resturants, hair care salons, etc. Where
I did not have to suffer unruly children or their 1-2-3 counting parents.

Tell me this how do you all feel when a stranger asks you to quiet down your children
in a public place?

If Not For Grace said:

Tell me this how do you all feel when a stranger asks you to quiet down your children
in a public place?

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If I'm already addressing the issue (which I usually am) or depending on how "unruly" my children are being, I usually tell them that I'm handling the issue in a tone that lets them know their input is not welcome.

I don't go up to people who are yapping too loudly on their cell phone and ask them to quiet down. To me, it's the same mindset.

If Not For Grace said:

Tell me this how do you all feel when a stranger asks you to quiet down your children
in a public place?

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I'll have to get back to you on that one as I have never had anyone ask my to quiet down my child. I, on the other hand, have had to tell parents to keep their children from playing with our glass ornaments and other breakables in our store before..and if a parent is no where in sight then I tell the child myself that what they're playing with isn't a toy and if it breaks it could possibly hurt them.

alimarch said:

To those commenting on this thread -

I first learned of the 'no kids allowed' movement yesterday on the internet. I have been researching abortion lately and the statistics since roe vs wade in the early 70's (50,000,000 reported abortions since the laws inception - a claim of 82% of abortions today are those of convenience). Do you think there could be a link between 'no kids allowed' and a diminishing value for children that may be affecting our societal view?

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This is something that scares me. Our society more than any other doesn't accept children. In Mexico and El Salvador the parents take their children EVERYWHERE with them. Parties that last until 2 or 3 a.m., resteraunts, stores, etc... Chinese and Japanese cultures are much the same. Westernized countries are the only ones to ostracize children in public and where has it gotten us? Id wager to say that children don't know how to behave nowadays because of the fact that we don't expose them to the outside world. They're at home until the age of 6 or 7 for the most part and get out there thinking that behaving as they do at home will cut it in a movie theater or a museum. Even if you teach your children correctly they'd still have alot more leeway at home than any public setting and won't know how to behave until they've had some exposure. Also think about the rate of parents who kill their children? Is it a coincidence that parents get out less now than any other era for fear of the no children allowed movement and there are cases every year of mothers and fathers killing their children? And I can see that this could also run into the fact that more and more people don't wait until marriage to have children so the rate of single parents is higher but even still if the single mothers and fathers could get out and destress more often its better for their children. Don't forget that most people work during the daytime hours so they may not even see their children until 6 or 7 p.m and feel like going out for a bite to eat. Should that not be allowed. Once its curfew for the children its curfew for the adults? I just don't see anything that justifies criminalizing parenthood because the childless couple over in the next booth can't wait through five seconds of crying so the mother can calm her child. IF it's more than a few minutes then just ask them to step outside and if they get angry that's their right but it should also be the establishments right to kick them out. There's a way to work around it so that we aren't banning children. What would Jesus think of that?

chelsea89 said:

This is something that scares me. Our society more than any other doesn't accept children. In Mexico and El Salvador the parents take their children EVERYWHERE with them. Parties that last until 2 or 3 a.m., resteraunts, stores, etc... Chinese and Japanese cultures are much the same. Westernized countries are the only ones to ostracize children in public and where has it gotten us? Id wager to say that children don't know how to behave nowadays because of the fact that we don't expose them to the outside world. They're at home until the age of 6 or 7 for the most part and get out there thinking that behaving as they do at home will cut it in a movie theater or a museum. Even if you teach your children correctly they'd still have alot more leeway at home than any public setting and won't know how to behave until they've had some exposure. Also think about the rate of parents who kill their children? Is it a coincidence that parents get out less now than any other era for fear of the no children allowed movement and there are cases every year of mothers and fathers killing their children? And I can see that this could also run into the fact that more and more people don't wait until marriage to have children so the rate of single parents is higher but even still if the single mothers and fathers could get out and destress more often its better for their children. Don't forget that most people work during the daytime hours so they may not even see their children until 6 or 7 p.m and feel like going out for a bite to eat. Should that not be allowed. Once its curfew for the children its curfew for the adults? I just don't see anything that justifies criminalizing parenthood because the childless couple over in the next booth can't wait through five seconds of crying so the mother can calm her child. IF it's more than a few minutes then just ask them to step outside and if they get angry that's their right but it should also be the establishments right to kick them out. There's a way to work around it so that we aren't banning children. What would Jesus think of that?

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First off, while I can't speak for the other places you listed, I currently live in Japan and they do not take their children everywhere. I have not seen a child in a restaurant higher than about a Denny's, I think probably due to all the drunk, smoking business men at the others.

Secondly, no one is saying you can't go out with your kids. We're saying take them to more age appropriate things. Your child does not need to learn how to not scream at a steakhouse, they can learn that at a Denny's. They don't need to be running around an Art Museum, they can do that at a kid's planetarium or science center. No one wants you to stay locked up in your house, we just want to be able to go to some places that are not bars and not have to worry about seeing children.

And finally, I don't think the parents side understands where the childless are coming from complaining about the noises. You say it's "just 5 seconds" until you take the child out of the restaurant to calm down. That's true, it is usually about that long. It inturrupts my meal, but only briefly. The problem is that you then calm the child down, and come right back in. Your child is still tried/grumpy/whatever, and now they're sitting in the corner of my vision, and I'm just waiting for another outburst and the cycle to repeat itself. It may only be 5 seconds, but that happens several times, and leaves the suspense of it happening again as long as your child remains there. Even if your child is completely good after that first one, the rest of my evening remains tense in anticipation of another one.

You claim it should also be the establishments right to kick the family out, but that's exactly whats happening. Private businesses are banning children, perfectly within what you claim they should be able to do. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that if this many restaurants are willing to risk losing business with these bans, it must be at least a significant number of problem children on a regular basis, hardly the "just a few bad parents with misbehaved kids" that your side makes things out to be.

:thunderous applause:

Thank you umaro, for beating me to much of what I was going to say and providing a great common sense response. I would add:

Id wager to say that children don't know how to behave nowadays because of the fact that we don't expose them to the outside world.

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You'd lose that bet, I'm afraid. Children don't know how to behave nowadays because we have mindless fools with no clue how to raise a child (PS I am not pointing that or any of this towards you or anyone specifically) out there breeding like cockroaches. They are either too ignorant, spineless or worse just plain lazy to take the time and effort to raise their kids properly - which oh btw includes teaching them how to behave and using discipline when necessary. It's so bad we actually need such extreme measure like this, or commercials urging people to "be the parent" because of such people, who never should have had kids in the first place.

Even if you teach your children correctly they'd still have alot more leeway at home than any public setting and won't know how to behave until they've had some exposure.

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First off, as has been explained, they can get plenty of exposure without taking them to inappropriate places where they never should have been taken in the first place, like fine dining, movies (other than kiddie movies), museums, etc etc etc.

And they won't know how to behave unless they are actually taught by the people who are supposed to teach them, ie their so-called parents.

Is it a coincidence that parents get out less now than any other era

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Not only is it not a coicedence, it's not even a fact. Where on Earth did you get this? With both parents working being the norm now, parents drag their kids out with them more than ever before.

there are cases every year of mothers and fathers killing their children?

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I have no idea what you're talking about, let alone how it's relevant.

And I can see that this could also run into the fact that more and more people don't wait until marriage to have children so the rate of single parents is higher

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ie more evidence of knuckle-dragging people we don't need reproducing...

but even still if the single mothers and fathers could get out and destress more often its better for their children.

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De-stress by.......bringing their screaming children with them? ie the ones who are causing much of the stress in the first place?? Lost me there.

Don't forget that most people work during the daytime hours so they may not even see their children until 6 or 7 p.m and feel like going out for a bite to eat. Should that not be allowed.

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Sure. Course God forbid they eat at meal at home and do that whole home thing, something fundamentally so important, esp to kids. No, let's instead drag them out among a bunch of strangers.

Sorry, lost me there too.

I just don't see anything that justifies criminalizing parenthood

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And here. No one is "criminalizing parenthood." In fact, no one is even criminalizing BAD parenthood, although I dearly wish they would. We're simply saying there should be other options where one can be reasonably assured of eating a meal in peace without fear of a baby/etc suddenly emitting ear-piercing cries and screams.

because the childless couple over in the next booth can't wait through five seconds of crying so the mother can calm her child. IF it's more than a few minutes then just ask them to step outside and if they get angry that's their right but it should also be the establishments right to kick them out.

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You miss the point. Even one second of such obnoxious noise is more than enough to ruin an otherwise peaceful experience. Don't think so? OK how about if someone comes over to your place when you're fast asleep and suddenly screams out - but "only" for a second or two? You won't mind since it's just a short period of time, right? I think we all know the answer. That this happens at all is the problem, not how long it is.

There's a way to work around it so that we aren't banning children.

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Yes, like parents teaching their children how to behave. Sadly, that has become passe, making things like this necessary.

What would Jesus think of that?

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What would Jesus think of irresponsible parents who fail to teach and discipline their kids properly? Or of people who have no consideration for others?

I am amazed anyone would have a problem with this. It's not like the federal gov't is coming out with a law banning all children from all restaurants.