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The Lady Kate

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I see. The Authors of Genesis had absolutely no shred of poetry and creativity in them... and neither should its readers.

What a depressingly bleak place the Kingdom of God would be.



Because I am a Lady (and don't you forget it!) I'll refrain from giving this question the answer it deserves.

Couldn't resist shoehorning your own words into Luther's, could you?

My mistake, should of said [or billions of years]. And no its not my words, I’m a young earth creationists - remember?


So you claim that Martin Luther said "billions of years"?... My, the man was a visionary...



Amazing and disturbing how close one seems to be the other, doesn't it?

And by the way Luther lived in the late 15th and early 16th century, not the 14th.

The message was one of regression. I forgot how literally you take everything.
Some of that poetry and creativity I mentioned might come in handy right about now.


If one wants to keep the masses ignorant and superstitious, at the mercy of self appointed prophets, sure.
 
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Marshall Janzen

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Crusadar said:
I mean when it says God took dust and made a man, what do you think it means? That “God took dust and made a man” or could it possibly mean that “God took dust and made a man!”
Want to try that interpretational approach with Genesis 1? When it says that God spoke "Let us make man" and so God created man, what do you think that means? Be sure not to add any intermediary steps in there, such as dust.

But most likely, you do add the dust, because you look at some other parts of God's revelation, including Genesis 2, and probably come to the conclusion that there was a step between God speaking and man being created. In between, there was dust formed and inspired by God. If that is your view, then the very approach you dismiss (using other parts of God's revelation to shed more light on a passage) is what you use yourself. The only difference is that you limit the other parts of God's revelation that you consider to parts of the Bible, while others also use God's creation.

In my opinion, the Genesis 1 and 2 accounts of humanity's creation should not be merged together into a sequential order of events. I don't think it's right to say God spoke, then God created. My reason for this is that God's speech is effectual. When God speaks, things will happen! "For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm" (Psalm 33:9). "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible" (Hebrews 11:3). If one uses a sequential approach to God's speech and God forming creatures from dust, then one ends up with God's word being nothing more than God talking to himself prior to getting busy with creating. I don't think that's at all what Genesis 1 is trying to portray.

Instead, I see Genesis 1's description of creation by God's word and Genesis 2's description of God's creation in response to needs by physical actions as being complementary images. Both describe something supernatural that no physical image could completely contain. Both show different aspects of the same whole; they present the reality of creation through different windows, each of which only gives a partial view. So, it is true that God created by speaking, and it is also true that God created animals and humans from dirt. The contradictions only appear if we take the images too literally while ignoring that they refer to something beyond the merely physical.

And so, adding the scientific view that God has allowed humanity to discover, we end up with a third picture of creation. Science reveals many of the physical details. Genesis 1 and 2 describe God's agency and purpose in those processes. All three revelations are true as long as we allow each to be a window to the reality rather than claiming that any of the three completely encapsulates the reality.
 
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Micaiah

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Is there any theistic evolutionists here that can explain the Genesis myth conclusion? I am not looking for links, I am looking for your own words, with Scriptural support to show that Genesis is meant as a myth.

This was the initial post. The first step would be for the TE to define what they mean by a myth. The second step would be to demonstrate why Genesis is a myth. I haven't seen the first step completed yet. We've seen TE's trying to explain that a myth is not what you commonly think a myth is, and one saying he doesn't consider Genesis was intended as a myth.

Can anyone see why we have trouble understanding and accepting what TE's believe. Some view their efforts as an attempt to obfuscate what God intended as a plain and simple account of Creation.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
This was the initial post. The first step would be for the TE to define what they mean by a myth.

Re-read posts 2, 4 & 10.

If I have not been clear enough on what a myth is, feel free to ask clarifying questions.

The second step would be to demonstrate why Genesis is a myth.

Post 10.


Note that one can be confused by the term "myth" because it has several non-literary meanings as well as being a literary genre. Those non-literary meanings (e.g. fable, tall tale, falsehood) are not applicable when discussing myth in the bible.

Also, most people do not have the necessary grounding in literary genres to be able to distinguish terms such as metaphor, fable, myth, legend, allegory, etc, properly. So they use them carelessly as catch-all terms for "not literal" "figurative".

A myth is an extended metaphor, but it is not a legend, fable or allegory.

I appreciate the fact that most people here are science-oriented and have not studied literature at a post-secondary level, so I don't often call them on making such category errors. But if you seriously want to know why scholars call parts of Genesis (never the whole book or even the whole creation story) a myth, you have to be prepared to learn something about literary forms and genres. Because, whatever else it is, the bible is also literature, and understanding what kind of literature it is at various places improves one's understanding of the author's message.


Some view their efforts as an attempt to obfuscate what God intended as a plain and simple account of Creation.

In the ancient near east, as in most pre-scientific societies, a myth WAS a plain and simple account.
 
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Micaiah

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In the ancient near east, as in most pre-scientific societies, a myth WAS a plain and simple account.

Maybe so, but judging by what you say, you require a post graduate degree to understand the intended meaning of the passage. Call it what you like, but it is NOT the plain meaning of the text.

I believe God wrote the account of Genesis so that people from any culture could read and understand the assertions of fact made. Most people understand the meaning of words like day, fish, birds, male, female etc. There is a supernatural aspect to the story recorded in Genesis 2. I never had much trouble accepting that when I was 5. I didn't think the TE's on this forum denied the possibility of the supernatural.
 
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Joykins

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I don't think anyone needs postgradulate level study to be able to define a myth.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=myth

first meaning


There are other meanings to "myth" which approximate "fictitious" or "fallacy" but that is not the meaning of "myth" that we use when we refer to the second creation story in Genesis.

Joy
 
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Micaiah

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Some definitions and statements about myths by TE's. Believe me, trying to get a definition from these guys is like pulling a tooth.

POST 2

So, when speaking of myth in the bible, we are speaking of a literary genre identified by specific characteristics. Other meanings of myth in the dictionary or in popular speech should be set aside. They are not relevant.

We aren't going to give you a clear definition except to say it is not what you think it is. Normal dictionary definitions are inadequate.

One characteristic of a myth is that the central character is God (or in polytheistic cultures, gods.)

That covers most of Scripture.

POST 3

"Myth" is define as a story of beginnings. A myth could be true or a fable.

This one was apparently wrong.

POST 5

From Encarta... MYTH: a traditional story about heroes or supernatural beings, often attempting to explain the origins of natural phenomena or aspects of human behavior.
Genesis certainly fits the description, doesn't it?

From an encyclopedia. Always a good starting point. I think this covers my understanding of Genesis as a YEC, and I don't consider that a myth.

POST 6

well, im a Theistic evolutionist, but i dont believe it is a myth.

check this ultra scientific classification of the bat in laviticus 11:13-19

I'm not aware of the book called laviticus in the Bible. For a start, all the books in my Bible begin with a capital letter. This TE has obviously gone out on a limb. This and the other posts highlight the diversity of opinion that can exist when you adopt the so called 'plain' TE interpretation of the text.

POST 8


Another perspective. I'd have to start another thread to discover the difference between an allegory and a myth. Given the diversity over the definitions of myth given here, I don't think it really matters.

There is some attempt here to relate the meaning of allegory to the book of Genesis. This OP was unusually clear in the way she expressed her views. One is however left wondering why we should reject the possibility of the supernatural in the story of the fall, just because it sounds - well supernatural.
 
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gluadys

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Joykins said:
I don't think anyone needs postgradulate level study to be able to define a myth.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=myth

Yeah, Micaiah's exaggerating. I did not say post-graduate, I said post-secondary. I've never studied at a post-graduate level myself.

first meaning

I would say that definition would be a bit difficult for some (but not all) high school students. However, as I was refreshing my own understanding of "myth" I found several lesson plans for teaching high school and even elementary students the basic literary meaning of myth. So it's not rocket science.

After all, if primitive people, who had not even developed a writing system yet, could understand myth 10,000 or more years ago, it's not beyond our capacity to do so.
 
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Joykins

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I was a literature major. Genre is one of the easiest things about literature to understand. From the same link:

allegory

  1. <LI type=a>The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
  2. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.
  3. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.
fable

  1. A usually short narrative making an edifying or cautionary point and often employing as characters animals that speak and act like humans.
  2. A story about legendary persons and exploits.
There, now we have the tools to discuss.
 
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Critias

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Some of these conclusions can be applied to Jesus as well.

gluadys said:
2. The story is not set in historical time but in the mists of the long ago "day when the LORD God created heaven and earth" (There is no mention of six/seven days in this story.) It is a story of beginnings, not of history.

Really? So you see no connection in Genesis 2:4-3 with Genesis 1?

gluadys said:
3. The story contains numerous symbolical elements such as the two trees in the garden, the serpent, the sacrifices of Cain and Abel, the garden, the expulsion of from the garden, and testing of the human characters.

Serpents, trees, sacrifices, a garden, testing of human characters are defined as symbolic?

Much of the Old Testament and New can be symbolic then.


Jesus explains why things are as well, was that mythical?

So, because it explains our sinful beginning and what sin has done, it is a myth?


We are comparing the Greeks with Ancient Hebrews? These cultures were very much different.

gluadys said:
5. The story is applicable to all times. Its lessons are timeless. We see this in Jesus pointing to the mating of the man and woman in this story as the basis of marriage.

Jesus' stories and lessons are applicable to all times. His lessons are timeless. Was Jesus then a myth?


So, saying Yahweh Elohim denotes myth? Historical recordings are also used to identify a people and their culture. To explains who they were and what they did within the world.

gluadys said:
Identifying a passage as myth is not a matter of "feeling". It is a matter of looking for specific characteristics such as the six above.

You cannot be serious, can you? If I take your six examples above, I can apply them to most of the Bible, if not all of it.

Identifying Genesis as a myth is being careless with the interpretation. Can you draw from other ancient myths and show why Genesis is just like them?
 
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Micaiah

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Apparently not all of Genesis is myth, only part. Here are the reasons why TE's believe part of Genesis must be interpretted as myth. We assume that the points raised are all characteristics of a myth, and help to define the TE meaning of myth.

From post 10



Identifying a passage as myth is not a matter of "feeling". It is a matter of looking for specific characteristics such as the six above.

By the way. What do you call the first part of Genesis up to 2:4a?










 
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Micaiah

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Yeah, Micaiah's exaggerating. I did not say post-graduate, I said post-secondary. I've never studied at a post-graduate level myself.

LOL Basically you are asking for a university course in literary genres followed up by an application of genre study to biblical narratives

I was a literature major. Genre is one of the easiest things about literature to understand.

Take your pick!
 
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Micaiah

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You forgot about a myth.

Psst. What is a genre? Aren't these were the guys in charge of an army.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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rmwilliamsll

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one of the best essays online on both the mythic qualities of Gen 1 and of it's polemic attacks on neighboring religious mythologies while using those images is:
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Bible-Science/6-02Watts.html

where he begins this section with:

and his conclusion:


this is the kind of analysis that compares middle eastern myth with Gen 1


....
 
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gluadys

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Critias said:
that is some serious jumping through hoops.

Yes, it is. It takes practice getting out of the little hoop we have locked ourselves into since we adopted Enlightenment/scientific criteria of truth and finding our way into the mytho-poetic hoop that was the norm in ancient cultures.

But since the biblical writers wrote when mytho-poetic writing was the norm, the way to understanding the bible is to jump from our modernistic frame of categories into theirs and, as far as we can, get a good look at it from the inside.

Then we can start applying it to our own cultural way of thinking. When we do this it is astounding how modern the bible can be. Ultimately the creation story is less about the details of a long ago event, than about how to worship God here and now.
 
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