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Xeno.of.athens

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A Catholic Mass consists of two primary parts: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Additionally, there are three shorter segments: the Introduction, which includes the entrance procession, and the communion rite, and the Conclusion, which encompasses the recessional and hymn. Many may recognize this structure of the Mass.


There is also a second form of the mass which was the main form used from not long after the time of the council of Trent until not long after the second Vatican council.

 
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AlexB23

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I like this one. If you need anything else, the artificial intelligence on my laptop is hooked up to several Catholic documents. The output should be ready in a short while. The Roman Missal (3rd Edition) will probably be used as a source.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I like this one. If you need anything else, the artificial intelligence on my laptop is hooked up to several Catholic documents. The output should be ready in a short while. The Roman Missal (3rd Edition) will probably be used as a source.
Are you enjoying your experience with the AI? Do you utilise it to explore questions related to religion?
 
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AlexB23

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Are you enjoying your experience with the AI? Do you utilise it to explore questions related to religion?
I love it. My devotionals are made mostly with AI, except for my life anecdote at the bottom of each devotional. I first started using AI (a partially open source AI named Mistral AI), to explore religious questions in late-March 2024, and since then, I have gotten more into the Bible. In other words, AI has made getting into the Bible more interesting, as it connects the Bible to modern life. Most of the time, I do not need to hook the AI up to PDFs, but for more complicated questions, I can hook Mistral AI up to documents stored on my computer using the GPT4All application by Nomic. The AI itself is privately run on my laptop's Intel CPU, and does not need an internet connection, so that means it is secure, though the AI is much slower compared to cloud based AI such as ChatGPT.

The devotional below is made ~87% by AI (by word count):
 
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AlexB23

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Alright, here is what the AI spit out. Welcome to the future guys, where AI can run locally on a laptop.


The Order of the Catholic Mass consists of two main parts: The Liturgy of the Word and The Liturgy of the Eucharist. Here's a breakdown of each part along with their corresponding Bible verses.

  1. The Introductory Rites (Gathering, Penitential Act, Kyrie, Gloria) - These rites prepare the faithful for worship and acknowledge God's holiness. (Matthew 6:9-13, Mark 11:25, Philippians 4:6-7)
  2. The Liturgy of the Word (First Reading, Responsorial Psalm, Second Reading, Gospel Acclamation, Gospel Reading, Homily, Profession of Faith)- This part consists of readings from Scripture and a sermon. It is meant to help the faithful hear God's word and deepen their understanding and appreciation of it. (1 Timothy 4:13, Acts 20:7, Nehemiah 8:1-9)
    • The First Reading usually comes from the Old Testament. To indicate the end of reading, the reader acclaims "The word of the Lord" and all respond "Thanks be to God." (Neh 8:3)
    • The Responsorial Psalm is sung or recited by the assembly as a response to the First Reading. (Psalms 95-106)
    • The Second Reading comes from one of the New Testament letters. To indicate its end, there's no special acclamation but the reader proceeds directly with the Gospel Acclamation.
    • The Gospel Acclamation is a song or recitation that introduces the Gospel reading. (John 1:14)
    • The Gospel Reading comes from one of the four Gospels and relates a message from Jesus Christ. To indicate its end, the reader says "The Gospel of the Lord" and all respond "Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ." Then he kisses the book as an act of reverence and love for God's word. (Luke 4:16-21)
    • The Homily is a sermon given by the priest or deacon that explains the Scripture readings in relation to Christian life today. (Acts 20:7, James 3:1)
    • The Profession of Faith, also known as the Creed, affirms our belief in one God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19, Romans 10:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:3-7)
  3. The Liturgy of the Eucharist (Presentation and Preparation of Gifts, Prayer over the Offerings, Eucharistic Prayer I-IV, Lord's Prayer, Our Father, Sign of Peace, Lamb of God, Fraction Rite, Agnus Dei, Communion)- This part includes the offering of gifts, prayers for their transformation into the Body and Blood of Christ, and reception of Holy Communion. (Matthew 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:7-20, 1 Corinthians 10:16)
    • The Presentation and Preparation of Gifts involves the congregation bringing gifts (bread and wine) to be consecrated. This offering is symbolic of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
    • Prayer over the Offerings asks God to accept these offerings as a pleasing sacrifice.
    • The Eucharistic Prayer, also known as the Canon, begins with "The Lord be with you" and concludes with "Through him, with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all honor and glory is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever." It includes prayers for the faithful departed, anamnesis (remembrance) of Christ's death and resurrection, institution narrative (the Last Supper), consecration, and doxology.
    • The Lord's Prayer is prayed during the Eucharistic Prayer as a model for Christian prayer. It shows Jesus teaching his disciples how to pray in response to their request. (Matthew 6:9-13)
    • The Sign of Peace is an expression of unity and reconciliation among those present.
    • The Lamb of God is sung or recited three times, with the people responding "Lord, I am not worthy" each time. After this, communicants are invited to come forward for Holy Communion. (John 1:29)
    • The Fraction Rite and Agnus Dei mark the preparation of the consecrated bread and wine for distribution as Holy Communion. It is also a reminder that Christ's body was broken and his blood poured out on the cross.
    • After receiving communion, the people sing or say "Alleluia" if it is permitted. Otherwise, they simply return to their pews in silence. (Revelation 19:1-6)
Source:
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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In the Service of the word, I see no reference to either a sermon or homily that would almost always be part of a public celebration.


Interestingly, in our Lutheran Mass, the structure is very similar and even identical in some of the segments. While the Novus Ordo pretty much as it stands follows the same basic structure as the Lutheran Mass, many of the things that are carried over from the pre Trent Mass in the extraordinary form were retained in the Lutheran Mass and still are among the more traditional and conservative Synods..
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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"Listen to the commentary of the priest" is the homily.
 
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The Liturgist

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There is also a second form of the mass which was the main form used from not long after the time of the council of Trent until not long after the second Vatican council.

On this point I fear you are quite incorrect - the pre-Tridentine uses such as the Dominican, Carmelite, Carthusian, Norbertine, Sarum, York, Bragan, and Lyonaise uses are all nearly identical to the Tridentine mass, with only minor differences in wording, rubrics and the liturgical calender. If you don’t believe me, read the missals. There are English translations of the Sarum and York missals that I have in my liturgical library (and I believe they exist of the Hereford and Durham uses as well), as well as of the old Dominican and Carthusian masses. And you can also find online the Latin originals, which of course I also have, and have read.

The Tridentine mass was not in any respect a major change from the plethora of regional uses it was intended to consolidate (which I regret, naturally - I wish they hadn’t done that, since even though those places which could show their use had been around for more than 200 years could keep it, not everyone bothered, and as for the four English uses, since by the time of Trent Catholicism was officially illegal in England (which was horrible) and was secretly practiced underground by composers such as Byrd and Tallis, well, they simply ceased to be practiced, although the missals survived along with enough other material so that the Anglo Catholics and Western Rite Orthodox were able to revive them.

But at any rate the idea that Tridentine marked a major departure is simply wrong - it was basically the Roman Rite as it existed at the time of the Council of Trent. One other unfortunate decision of the Council of Trent was to wage a war on the Rood Screens, although they did not fire the first shot - this had been done by the Franciscan and Dominican friars. If it had remained limited to them, it would have been fine, just as how the unusual liturgy celebrated by New Skete Monastery is not a problem for the Orthodox unless it starts being adopted by parishes, which is not going to happen. At any rate, the loss of most of the Rood Screens in Europe caused a further rupture with the ancient tradition which survives in the form of the Byzantine, Coptic and Ethiopian iconostasis (some Syriac Orthodox parishes have an iconostasis, but usually the icons are displayed not so much on a stasis but on columns or otherwise in a manner adjacent), the Armenian Bema, and the curtain used by the Armenians (together with the bema), most Syriac Orthodox parishes, and the parishes of the Church of the East. Fortunately, some survived, ironically, in Anglican churches, albeit with iconoclastic defacement, and some of these were restored, and new ones built in the 19th century.

Now, there is an alternate form of the traditional Latin mass, but it is a different rite, or family of rites, specifically the Gallican Rite and its relatives, the Ambrosian, Beneventan, and Mozarabic Rites. These follow a different ordo from the Roman Rite.

Of these, the Gallican became extinct after Charlemagne ordered it replaced with the Roman Rite, but we have some surviving manuscripts, and the same is true of the Beneventan rite used in Southern Italy (Campania, I think).

However, the Ambrosian rite is still celebrated by over a million people in the Archdiocese of Milan, and likewise the Mozarabic Rite also survives, but unfortunately it went from having seven parishes in the 19th century to having none today - it is preserved only in a chapel in the Cathedral of Toledo, and in a nearby monastery, and in some of the marriage rites used in Mexico, but it was celebrated by Pope John Paul II.

The interesting thing about the old Gallican rites is that they, along with the East Syriac Rite used by the Assyrian Church of the East, and to a lesser extent the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, where this was once common, but now usually does not happen, are the only ancient rites where the Old Testament was read in the Synaxis (what is called “the Liturgy of the Word” in modern RC parlance).

By the way, the term used for the Introductory Rites, well, parts of them, is the Prothesis, Proskomide or Liturgy of Preparation or Preparatory Rites, the correct term for the Liturgy of the Word is the Synaxis, or Liturgy of the Catechumens, and the correct term for the rest is the Liturgy of the Faithful, which contains the Anaphora, which the Novus Ordo insists upon calling “the Eucharistic Prayer”, a term I find very frustrating because the entire liturgy is a Eucharistic prayer - that’s what the mass is.

Speaking of which, the Roman Canon (“Eucharistic Prayer 1” in the Novus Ordo) is the only anaphora known to have been celebrated in the Roman Rite. There is no evidence the anaphora contained in the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus was ever used in Rome, but it was used in Antioch, and the Antiochene liturgy was the most widely used in the ancient world, which is why this liturgy is used almost word for word, albeit in its full form, not just the parts for the priests (one of the two major mistakes Bugnini made in composing Eucharistic Prayer 2 was to assume that the text from St. Hippolytus was the entire anaphora, which it wasn’t - ancient liturgical books unlike the Roman Missal were written for specific users, and contained only the text relevant to those celebrants - the Roman Missal introduced the concept of having everything in one book, and this was followed by the adoption in the Roman Rite of the practice, which still survives in the Latin Mass, of the priest repeating everything in his prayers, in addition to having his own prayers to say, such as the Secret and most of the Canon (the other mistake Bugnini made was to then modify the text so that the Epiklesis would precede rather than follow the Words of Institution, which he also did to the adaptation of the Egyptian form of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, known to liturgists as EgBAS).

At any rate, what St, Hippolytus provided was the ancient liturgy in Antioch, known as the Anaphora of the Apostles, which is still in use in the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, which uses an Antiochene liturgy that was taught to the Ethiopians by the Seven Syrian Sages, who were clergy from Antioch who came to assist the country in its mass conversion, which is interesting, since in the fourth century Egypt predominantly used the Alexandrian liturgy, known as the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark or the Divine Liturgy of St. Cyril among the Copts (because he translated it into Coptic), which is the oldest attested liturgy and is believed to be one of the two oldest in existence, along with the East Syriac liturgy of Saints Addai and Mari. But even then Alexandria was introducing Antiochene liturgies, in the form of EgBAS, and the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian, which my friend @Andrewn asked me about a few months before I became spectacularly ill in the spring.

Variant forms of this liturgy are also used by the Syriac Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox (Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which makes sense because St. Chrysostom was a priest in Antioch before being consecrated as Patriarch of Constantinople) and by the Maronite Catholics.

For more information on this, see the Oxford History of Christian Worship, Essays in Early Eastern Eucharistic Prayers, Prayers of the Eucharist: Early and Reformed, Context and Text: A Method for Liturgical Theology, Issues in Eucharistic Praying: East and West, Do This In Remembrance of Me, Liturgical Reform After Vatican II: The Impact on Eastern Orthodoxy (spoiler: there is none), and several other books, plus various pre-Tridentine missals which I have no doubt that with the use of Google you can find as easily as I have.
 
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The Liturgist

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I got it to spit out a credible West Syriac style anaphora, with only one minor mistake, and that was ChatGPT 3.5, which was much more error prone than ChatGPT 4o.
 
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AlexB23

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I got it to spit out a credible West Syriac style anaphora, with only one minor mistake, and that was ChatGPT 3.5, which was much more error prone than ChatGPT 4o.
GPT 4o has some issues from what I have heard. What is an anaphora?
 
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The Liturgist

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I do not understand what you're objecting to.

Forgive me, but were you not asserting that the pre-Tridentine forms of the mass, some of which are still in use, by the way, are more like the Novus Ordo Missae than the Tridentine mass?
 
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The Liturgist

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GPT 4o has some issues from what I have heard. What is an anaphora?


There were some complaints about GPT 4, and I slightly preferred 3.5 to 4, but I prefer 4o to both previous versions. The only issue is that usage of 3.5 is not time limited, but I’ve only once hit the limit with GPT 4o.
 
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AlexB23

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There were some complaints about GPT 4, and I slightly preferred 3.5 to 4, but I prefer 4o to both previous versions. The only issue is that usage of 3.5 is not time limited, but I’ve only once hit the limit with GPT 4o.
Use LLaMA or Mistral AI, if your laptop is powerful enough. Both are free and open source.
 
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The Liturgist

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Use LLaMA or Mistral AI, if your laptop is powerful enough. Both are free and open source.

I’m two steps ahead of you, building a server cluster to run them. However, chatGPT will always have the upper edge in performance.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Forgive me, but were you not asserting that the pre-Tridentine forms of the mass, some of which are still in use, by the way, are more like the Novus Ordo Missae than the Tridentine mass?
No.
 
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AlexB23

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I’m two steps ahead of you, building a server cluster to run them. However, chatGPT will always have the upper edge in performance.
True. Good luck with your server.
 
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jas3

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Forgive me, but were you not asserting that the pre-Tridentine forms of the mass, some of which are still in use, by the way, are more like the Novus Ordo Missae than the Tridentine mass?
I think the assertion was more that the TLM was a product of the Council of Trent, the implication being that the NO, being a product of Vatican II, is similar to the TLM.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I think the assertion was more that the TLM was a product of the Council of Trent, the implication being that the NO, being a product of Vatican II, is similar to the TLM.
No, that is not what is intended either. What is intended is this:
currently there are two forms of the mass that are licit (other forms exist and some are in use, especially in churches under the authority of monastic orders or other less common arrangements regarding the local authority under which they are conducted) and that may be used with the permission of the local Ordinary provided no contrary provisions from the Holy See are present.
(1) the first form of the mass is called the ordinary form and it is expected that this is the form offered except when the extraordinary form is used.​
(2) the second form of the mass is called the extraordinary form, and this is the form offered only at masses where permission to use it is granted by the local Ordinary. This second form is essentially the same as the Mass in common use in 1962, some people call it the Trent Mass or the Tridentine Mass.​
The Trent mass became the common form of the mass sometime after the council of Trent (this may have varied from country to country and district to district). It remained the common form of the mass until sometime after the second Vatican council (this may have varied from country to country and district to district).
 
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