The Mariana Trench

Vermithrax · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
This is as it should be --- and it's called 'walking by faith'.

What's your definition of the word "faith?"

Hespera · Jul 17, 2009

Vermithrax said:
What's your definition of the word "faith?"

maybe pick from this authentic list

Definitions of faith on the Web:

religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"
religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Faith, a bipedal female dog, was born in December 2002 with only three legs; two fully-developed hind legs and a deformed front leg, which was amputated when she was 7 months old after it began to atrophy. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(dog)
"Faith" was the second single by the Nu metal/Rapcore band Limp Bizkit. It appeared on their 1997 album Three Dollar Bill, Yall$, and is a cover of the namesake 1987 George Michael song. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Limp_Bizkit_song)
Faith is the third album by country artist Faith Hill, released in 1998. Due to the success of the single "This Kiss" in Australia and the UK, the album was released under the title Love Will Always Win, featuring the title track, new versions of Piece of My Heart and Let Me Let Go, as well as ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Faith_Hill_album)
Faith is the eighth episode in the fourth season of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica. It first aired on television on May 9, 2008. The episode guest starred actress Nana Visitor, best known for her role as Kira Nerys on ''''.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Battlestar_Galactica)
Faith (Pali: saddhā, Sanskrit: Śraddh&#257 is an important constituent element of the teachings of the Buddha for all traditions of Buddhism, though the kind and nature of faith changes in the different schools. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Buddhism)
Faith is Japanese vocalist Hyde's third solo album.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Hyde_album)
"Faith" is a song by Céline Dion, released on October 27, 2003 as the third (promotional only) single in Canada from her album One Heart.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Celine_Dion_song)
Faith is a fictional character created by Joss Whedon for the television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)
This is a list of episodes for the paranormal drama television series Supernatural. As of May 14, 2009, 82 episodes have been aired.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Supernatural)
Faith is a superhero in the DC Comics universe who first appeared in JLA #69 (October 2002).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(comics)
Faith was founded in 1984 by Roger Johansson (guitars), Christer Nilsson (bass, vocals) and Peter Svensson (drums), who had always been the stable ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(band)

Vermithrax · Jul 17, 2009

Hespera said:
maybe pick from this authentic list...

Encyclopedic, but not what I was looking for.

The Lady Kate · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
According to Wikipedia, the Mariana Trench reaches a maximum depth of 6.78 miles.If you accept this as factual, without going there and measuring it yourself --- even if everyone on earth goes there and measures it (except you) and comes back with the same figure --- then I contend that you're taking it on faith that the Mariana Trench has a maximum depth of 6.78 miles.

And I would contend that most people would be content with that because the depth of the Mariana Trench means absolutely nothing to 99.9% of the general population... Whether it's 6.78 miles, 3.27 miles, or 350 feet has absolutely no impact on my life in any way, shape or form.... how about yours?

Faith in the written documentation and/or eyewitness testimony and/or anecdotal testimony --- either way --- it's still faith.

Agreed... we take other people at their word when it's convenient for us to do so... when when what they tell us matches up to what we expect... when it's not worth the trouble to go check for ourselves.

And I don't care if you're a taxi driver, a chef, a ballerina, or an oceanographer looking at computer printouts and sonar graphs; if you haven't gone there yourself, then you're [correctly] accepting the written documentation.

Because the written documentation means no more to us than a piece of trivia... if I was truly interested in the Trench, I'd take a vacation, rent a diving bell, and go myself.

This is as it should be --- and it's called 'walking by faith'.

So... are you saying we should walk by faith only in trivial matters?

The Lady Kate · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
There is no difference.

The Mariana Trench was verified by those who were there and documented it.

Jesus' resurrection was verified by those who were there and documented it.

Excuse me AV1611VET, but you should know that nobody who was actually "there" documented anything... the Gospels were written decades after the fact, and not by eyewitnesses.

Really, I thought everyone knew that... the trick is not to let it be a stumbling block to our faith.

AV1611VET · Jul 17, 2009

The Lady Kate said:
So... are you saying we should walk by faith only in trivial matters?

Not at all --- we also walk by faith in the important matters as well.

That medicine that was just prescribed to you, or that pepper spray you bought, or that fire extinquisher you just purchased --- all giving you peace of mind through faith.

AV1611VET · Jul 17, 2009

The Lady Kate said:
Excuse me AV1611VET, but you should know that nobody who was actually "there" documented anything... the Gospels were written decades after the fact, and not by eyewitnesses.

Luke says otherwise:

Luke 1:2 said:
Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

atomweaver · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Not at all --- we also walk by faith in the important matters as well.

That medicine that was just prescribed to you, or that pepper spray you bought, or that fire extinquisher you just purchased --- all giving you peace of mind through faith.

No they don't. They give me peace of mind through function.

AV1611VET · Jul 17, 2009

atomweaver said:
No they don't. They give me peace of mind through function.

You mean after the fact?

I'm talking about before the fact.

pgp_protector · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
atomweaver said:

No they don't. They give me peace of mind through function.

Click to expand...

You mean after the fact?

I'm talking about before the fact.

Before you take medication, it doesn't ease the pain / suffering, so it's only After you take it.

Hespera · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Not at all --- we also walk by faith in the important matters as well.

That medicine that was just prescribed to you, or that pepper spray you bought, or that fire extinquisher you just purchased --- all giving you peace of mind through faith.

It is trust but verify. Its a much higher standard than the "faith" you talk about. We aint in the same boat with you on this "faith" stuff, dont want to be, and nothing you can say is going to make us the same.

Or make your documentation any better than any other unverifiable account of miracles, whether from the middle east, afrtica, or missouri.

atomweaver · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
You mean after the fact?

I'm talking about before the fact.

Me, too. Only pedantic idiots embroiled in philosophical internet forum debates would posit a doubt of the ability of working fire extinguishers to work, and "take it on faith", instead.

gipsy · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Not at all --- we also walk by faith in the important matters as well.

That medicine that was just prescribed to you, or that pepper spray you bought, or that fire extinquisher you just purchased --- all giving you peace of mind through faith.

So you don't drive with 200kmh into the next wall, because ?
Have you tried it yourself, or because you're walking by faith?

If this is really your definition of faith, then you should change your religion to polytheism asap.

Hespera · Jul 17, 2009

gipsy said:
So you don't drive with 200kmh into the next wall, because ?
Have you tried it yourself, or because you're walking by faith?

If this is really your definition of faith, then you should change your religion to polytheism asap.

I have gotten a lot out of the study of the English language. So would a lot of our posters, if they tried it. Strunk and White would be a good start.
They would suggest simple clear language that expresses something that can be understood by the reader.

Obscurantism or jargon, like "walking by faith" functions mostly to make it look as if the jargoneer knows more than he does.

I was reading a (wretched) educaitonal psychology book a while back, for a class. They used the term "actualizing potentiation". Very annoying jargon throughout but that term made me want to shred the book.

At least, unlike "walking by faith" its possible to translate that to plain English, they wont say "oh its a psychology thing, you would not understand".

I honeslty have no respect for jargoneers who cant explain what their jargon means. 'Course, it means they dont understand it, or they could explain it. Doctors and scientists use a lot of professional jargon coz it is good profesisonal shorthand. But I never met one who cant explain what they mean in plain English, if asked to.

TerranceL · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Just fyi, eternal life is a gift, not a reward.

Untrue, gifts are free you have to do something to get "eternal life".

AV1611VET · Jul 17, 2009

TerranceL said:
Untrue, gifts are free you have to do something to get "eternal life".

I know --- ask for it --- right?

The Lady Kate · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Not at all --- we also walk by faith in the important matters as well.

I see... there's no use investigating things that are important?

That medicine that was just prescribed to you, or that pepper spray you bought, or that fire extinquisher you just purchased --- all giving you peace of mind through faith.

The medicine that was prescribed was done so by a doctor who has proven his competency to me for years.

I don't buy pepper spray... I take self-defense classes.

And the fire extinguisher... my faith is that I'll never need it.

Does any of this sound like religious faith to you?

AV1611VET · Jul 17, 2009

The Lady Kate said:
Does any of this sound like religious faith to you?

It sounds like 'faith' to me.

Your adjective aside, I do not like the word 'religious' --- but that's just me.

Could we --- maybe --- get back to my example --- the Mariana Trench?

I know you guys like to talk about yourselves and your examples and your these and those, but how about my example?

Vermithrax · Jul 17, 2009

AV1611VET said:
It sounds like 'faith' to me.

Your adjective aside, I do not like the word 'religious' --- but that's just me.

Could we --- maybe --- get back to my example --- the Mariana Trench?

I know you guys like to talk about yourselves and your examples and your these and those, but how about my example?

Sure, let's get back to your example. First, however, you need to clarify what you mean when you say "faith," because it doesn't seem to mean the same thing to everyone.

For example, when you said "faith" I assume you meant "belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

Now, by that definition, your example doesn't make any sense.

Vermithrax · Jul 17, 2009

However, lets get back to your example, the Mariana Trench.

That Challenger Deep is 35,994 feet deep is an example of a pragmatic fact; it can be verified. I'm sure the sonar mapping data acquired on 1 June 2009 is available, and can be examined to that end.

However what you take "on faith" regarding your religion, cannot be verified, and thus your example is false.

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