The Kingdom of the Beast what is 100% for sure

Douggg said:

What? What are you talking about? Do a copy and paste of the exact verse and highlight the exact words you are referring to.
And why is the fourth one not the Roman Empire?


So you are contending that the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the beast in Revelation 13? With the 7 heads as being the king of Babylon empire, the king of the Mede/Persian empire, the four kings of the breakup Greek empire, the king of the fourth empire?

Which of those 7 kings, the sixth of them, was ruling at the time of John in Revelation 17:10?

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Vinsight4u is mostly right, but not about the 4th beast being the 3rd Beast.

So you are contending that the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the beast in Revelation 13?

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Duh.

With the 7 heads as being the king of Babylon empire, the king of the Mede/Persian empire, the four kings of the breakup Greek empire, the king of the fourth empire?

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It's a good thing I have two hands to count with... One Babylon king, one Medes/ Persian king, plus 4 leopard, plus the 4th beast king... Hey, that's 7! Neat-o

Which of those 7 kings, the sixth of them, was ruling at the time of John in Revelation 17:10?

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John is not making a "coded reference" to Rome with that statement.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

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He is saying when the harlot is burned with fire. The "one who is" is the Leopard king. The leopard king is the 6th king (1 king ruling over the defeated 3 other heads of the 4 headed leopard.) 5 have fallen, leaving the Leopard king (6th) ruling over the fallen 3 other heads, then the 7th head with 10 horns. The 10 horns bring the 7th king to power. The burning of the harlot brings the 7th to power.

This 6th king is the one that is given dominion in Dan 2

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

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and Dan 7

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

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It has nothing to do with Rome. The leopard king is the "king of the north" = analogous to the Seluecid empire 4 fragments from Alex the Great's empire. New Antiochus ruling Babylon. the 7th king is the "king of the south", the cruel leader of Isaiah 19

The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.
4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts.
5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

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The fierce king is given to the Egyptians when the rivers are "turned to blood". Ie, the bowls of wrath/ judgment. It is New Antiochus that places the "abomination of desolation", and it is the king of the South that is in charge of the mark of the beast microchip: Isaiah 36

5 I say, sayest thou, (but they are but vain words) I have counsel and strength for war: now on whom dost thou trust, that thou rebellest against me?
6 Lo, thou trustest in the staff of this broken reed, on Egypt; whereon if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all that trust in him.

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The "Egypt" is the great seal pyramid of the US. Go from dusk January 20th of any inauguration day and add 1260 days, let me know what is the 1261st day... (Here's a hint: there's lots of "signs and wonders" in the sky).

First, the 6th king, the Leopard king is given dominion, then the harlot is burned by the 10 kings to be, which brings the 7th king (the "4th kingdom") to power. This 7 headed entity forms the "7 headed dragon".

Then the 8th king, the 2nd "beast" who co-rules with the 1st beast (the 7 headed entity), the "beast from the earth" rules.

Because you refuse to see all 4 beasts as being in the end times, you don't understand Daniel 8-12, which is all referring to the end times, although there is a historical analog which keeps tripping people up.

Daniel 8 is super easy to understand if you just accept that the 4 beasts of Dan 7/ Dan 2 are all end time players, not just the last one. The Grecian "notable horn" (the "Alexander the Great" analog) defeats the Russian/ Iranian "Ram"after 5 months. The notable horn dies, and 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour later (the "latter time of the kingdom"), comes the new Antiochus, king of the North:

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Then the harlot is burned, bringing the 7th king to power, then the 8th king, the little horn of Daniel 7, rises up.

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tranquil said:

Duh.

It's a good thing I have two hands to count with... One Babylon king, one Medes/ Persian king, plus 4 leopard, plus the 4th beast king... Hey, that's 7! Neat-o

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There are 6 heads on the first three beasts. If a person wants to make an imperfect argument and say because the angel said the four great beasts are four kings, the leopard itself would be Alexander, and the four heads the four breakup kings. Making a total of 7 kings.

It doesn't work anyway, because there is no getting around the fact that the one is, ruling at the time of John was either Nero or Domitian. All of the greek empire kings were gone.

John is not making a "coded reference" to Rome with that statement.

He is saying when the harlot is burned with fire. The "one who is" is the Leopard king.

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The greek kings were gone at the time of John. It is either Nero or Domitian, as being the "one is".

The leopard king is the 6th king (1 king ruling over the defeated 3 other heads of the 4 headed leopard.) 5 have fallen, leaving the Leopard king (6th) ruling over the fallen 3 other heads, then the 7th head with 10 horns. The 10 horns bring the 7th king to power. The burning of the harlot brings the 7th to power.

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I don't know if you made a typo or not, but the ten kings burn the harlot when the beast is in power as the 8th king.

This 6th king is the one that is given dominion in Dan 2

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What verse in Daniel 2 are you referring to?

It has nothing to do with Rome. The leopard king is the "king of the north" = analogous to the Seluecid empire 4 fragments from Alex the Great's empire. New Antiochus ruling Babylon. the 7th king is the "king of the south", the cruel leader of Isaiah 19

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Antiochus never ruled Babylon. And the Antichrist is not of the greek empire. The greek empire and four kings ended before the time of Jesus.

The fierce king is given to the Egyptians when the rivers are "turned to blood". Ie, the bowls of wrath/ judgment. It is New Antiochus that places the "abomination of desolation", and it is the king of the South that is in charge of the mark of the beast microchip: Isaiah 36

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There is no new Antiochus coming. Antiochus and his counterparts ended before Jesus's time. The king in Daniel 11:36 is the Antichrist in the Antichrist-beast stage of his career. He come out of the Roman Empire, as the king ruling at the time of John was either Nero or Domitian.

The "Egypt" is the great seal pyramid of the US. Go from dusk January 20th of any inauguration day and add 1260 days, let me know what is the 1261st day... (Here's a hint: there's lots of "signs and wonders" in the sky).

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How are you connecting the great seal pyramid of the U.S. to anything in either Daniel or Revelation? The 1260 days are found in Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6.

Because you refuse to see all 4 beasts as being in the end times, you don't understand Daniel 8-12, which is all referring to the end times, although there is a historical analog which keeps tripping people up.

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I think people are looking at the fact that parts of the prophecies in Daniel 7,8, 9 have already been fulfilled as a matter of historical record.

Daniel 8 is super easy to understand if you just accept that the 4 beasts of Dan 7/ Dan 2 are all end time players, not just the last one. The Grecian "notable horn" (the "Alexander the Great" analog) defeats the Russian/ Iranian "Ram"after 5 months. The notable horn dies, and 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour later (the "latter time of the kingdom"), comes the new Antiochus, king of the North:

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Greece is going to defeat Russia?

You refer to Daniel 8:22-23

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

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At the time of Daniel, Alexander had not come to power, so verse 22 is a future prophecy to Daniel's time. Alexander came and died, and then his kingdom was divided up into four kingdoms - end of prophecy. It has been fulfilled already.

Next verse, 23, the transgressors of the end times who would be a part of desolation of the temple. In the latter time of their kingdom, it's final form when the ten kings have come to power, the kingdom of the ten horns, and the little horn - end times kingdom, the king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

That has nothing to do with the four breakup kingdoms, which were future of Daniel's time, but is long past fulfilled prophecy to our time. There is no connection between verse 22 and 23.

vinsight4u said:

The Greek Empire uses up five of the seven heads. A mixed animal type of beast - (such as one having parts from different animals) should have mixed animal types of heads.

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Are you talking about the 7 heads on the beast in Revelation?

7:1In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. [SIZE=-1]7:2[/SIZE]Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. [SIZE=-1]7:3[/SIZE]And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. [SIZE=-1]7:4[/SIZE]The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. [SIZE=-1]7:5[/SIZE]And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. [SIZE=-1]7:6[/SIZE]After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. [SIZE=-1]7:7[/SIZE]After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

/See how Daniel feels the need to tell us this part over?
"diverse"
Daniel is seeing a new set of beasts, as he had already told us the great beasts out of the sea were diverse from one another.

What I see is that once Daniel told us of a new beast, he then always added any further information to that one's description - by saying, it.
Before verse 7's new vision begins, Daniel has told us of a beast four times, and then followed each time with it.

Daniel 7:4 The first....it was lifted up from the earth.."
7:5 "...beast...it raised itself up on one side...in the mouth of it..."
7:6 "...another...it four wings of a fowl..."
7:6 "...the beast had also four heads...it..."

Daniel tells us about each beast one at a time, and then refers later to that same beast - not by beast - but by it. This is why I believe that the leopard beast rose two times, and the second time it had four heads.

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But that is not in the text that it rose two times out of the sea. The text says the beast also had four heads.

Daniel 8 shows that the Greek kingdom has to come back - as in the latter days.

8:23
"And in the latter time of their kingdom..."
/Grecia /the four smaller sections
I see Rev. 13's beast up out of the sea, as having five leopard heads, one lion, and one like a bear. Daniel 7 begins to show the explanation as to the four great beasts - these are four -and it shows that they make a kingdom,
This kingdom will be taken by the saints of the most High.

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I explained in my post just prior to this one to tranquil that Daniel 8:22 and Daniel 8:23 are unconnected. Daniel 8:22 was a future prophecy to Daniel's time, and has been fulfilled - end of that prophecy.

Daniel 8:23 is still unfulfilled.

There is not a composite beast in Daniel 7. You are looking for some explanation for the composite body of the beast in Revelation 13, but haven't found it yet. That composite body is not just the leopard, but also the lion, and the bear.

I have explained multiple times that with 42 months to go, the kingdom of the ten kings (the EU final form) will have gained control of the territory once held by the other three empires. That's the reason for the composite appearance of the beast in Revelation 13:2.

I see verse 19 start to tell us about the second vision of that night, and it is about a dominion (of the ten kings). The scarlet beast of Rev. 13 and the little horn king are the ones linked to those won't follow him if they are listed in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

v27
"And the kingdom and the dominion...shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High..."

You have gone to a different beast and chapter.
Notice that Rev. 17 splits at verse 15.

"And he saith unto me..."
The same angel had been speaking to him, yet now he feels the need to remind us of the speaker. Why? Because John is getting a new story explained to him.

Let's deal with one beast at a time.
Rev.13's first beast is the one given a seat, and he already has a mouth.
The little horn mouth comes later.
It is after the little horn mouth shows up that there is a split as to those that are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world -as to worhipping, wondering after the beast

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You are jumping all over the place, I can't figure out what you are thinking.

What I want to know from you is in Revelation 17, who is the sixth king ruling at the time of John?

five fallen kings:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
sixth king ruling at the time of John, the "one is"
6. ?????????????????????

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vinsight4u said:

I'm not saying that the fourth great beast is the third one. I'm saying that Daniel saw a leopard (just like the one that rose as the third great beast) rise -as the fourth beast. When it rose as the fourth beast, then it was seen to have four heads.

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I am glad you clarified that.

3 plus 4, then Daniel switches in the next verse to a new set of beasts is being shown to him, and he wants us to know the fourth one is diverse from the others that were before it.

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How in verse 7 is that a new set of beasts? It says fourth beast in the text.

The four great beasts - these are four kings that shall arise out of the earth.

The saints - take the kingdom.

But Daniel saw more than one vision - more than one continuous story takes place in this chapter, so he then gets the explanation of the fourth beast that was seen in the time of the second vision of that night.
This vision is representing kingdoms, but the ten kings will have to be given a kingdom in the future. This part is what seems to be referred to as dominion. Daniel 7 shows that both the kingdom and the dominion will be given to the saints of the most High.

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It is not the kingdom of the fourth beast the saints are given, but the kingdom given unto Jesus, his kingdom in verse 14.

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Hi vinsight4u, the reason I keep asking you for who is the sixth king ruling at the time of John in Revelation 17:10 is for you yourself to reason out that there is only one set of four beasts, with the fourth beast being the Roman Empire.

None of the Greek kings fit Revelation 17:10, the "one is".

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vinsight4u said in post 19:

the four great beasts - are not Roman

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One of them is. For in Daniel 7 the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

vinsight4u said in post 19:

So none of the seven heads in Rev. 13 are Roman Empire heads.

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One of them is. For the 7 heads of Revelation's beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

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vinsight4u said:

Rev. 17:1
"And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials...I will shew thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters."

This is the goal of the chapter.
To reveal how the great harlot will be judged.
But things go a bit in a different direction at first, because John wonders with great admiration as to the
woman when he saw her. This causes the angel to then tell about what the various subjects mean first.

17:7
"And the angel said unto...I will tell thee the mystery..."

Okay, so the angel has not yet shown the judgment of the great harlot.

But when we get to verse 15, that part begins.

"And he saith unto me..."
This is now when John will come to learn the judgment of the great harlot that he saw first back in
Rev. 16 as sitting upon many waters.

John also saw during chapter 16 that same beast that had been given a seat from the time of
Rev. 13. In chapter 16. a full vial is poured on the waters and one is poured on the seat of the beast.

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What? I am asking you who the 6th king was in Revelation 17:10, the "one is".

vinsight4u said in post 32:

John also saw during chapter 16 that same beast that had been given a seat from the time of
Rev. 13. In chapter 16. a full vial is poured on the waters and one is poured on the seat of the beast.

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That's right.

Revelation 13:2b refers to when Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus, if he would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamum (in what is now Turkey) (Revelation 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the 7 wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

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vinsight4u said:

The one speaking at the start of the chapter didn't say that the visions were at the same time as the dream.

"wrote the dream"
"told the sum of the visions"

"had a dream and visions"

It seems to me that the dream part begins at 7:15, where Daniel tells us that the visions of his head troubled him. There is more to the chapter, yet Daniel seems to made the rest of it as not being in the visions section.

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Once you realize that the sixth king in Revelation 17, the one is, was either Nero or Domitian, both Roman Empire kings - then you will realize the Greek empire is long over as far as end times bibile prophecy.

There are no two sets of beasts. The fourth beast of the only one set is the Roman Empire. That's where the little horn will come out of, the end times version of it.