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I appreciate the reply but when I said I would re-read with a fresh eye I meant your OP, not the bible.
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I appreciate the reply but when I said I would re-read with a fresh eye I meant your OP, not the bible.Ken, If I may offer the following advice, the Bible is you guide full stop. Read it daily pray and make sure what ever you do is moving closer to Jesus Christ daily. We will stumble and get it wrong but that why we carry a cross for Christ. Just grow ask, question read pray, chew the meat and spit out the bones.
Please accept my apologies it was not my intention to offend you.I appreciate the reply but when I said I would re-read with a fresh eye I meant your OP, not the bible.
Ken,Will do. And follower of Christ is fineI too am not so aligned to the mainstream picture Christianity presents today. I am not judging those within it, I am not saying they do not belong to God... but we are born into a religion that I am not so sure appears all that much like the faith as it was in the first century. In fact, at that time is was widely considered a sect of Judaism.
Will re-read with a fresh eye. Blessings.
Ken,
Al-Masseh grown, educated, prayed, circumcised,,, as per Mosa's Law. This is from NT itself. All his followers during his life were Jews. In fact, he didn't bring a new religion "Christianity". He was sent to the "Israels lost sheep" as per NT.
This is somehow nearby the Islamic belief in Al-Masseh's mission.
Regards
Hi Doug,The Quran makes the following statements about the Injil or Gospels (Defined as the New Testament books called Mathew Mark, Luke and John), to avoid any confusing or claim of misrepresentation of the context of the Quran on the part of the reader I have added the Tafsir (Arabic word for exegesis) :-
From the above Surahs it clear states the Injil or Gospels (Mathew Mark Luke and John) was given to Jesus by Allah. It further states the Injil is a book just as the Quran and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah.
Another false results based on 3 false assumptions:The above verses make clear that the Injil is the book of the Christians. Thus the following can derived from the Quran as fact.
· The Injil refers to the New Testament.
· The book that is with them and which they believe in is the bible as the Christians had in the 7th century when Muhammad was alive. Therefore the bible we have today.
· The author of the Quran even gives a warning the Christians to fully obey (the Torah and) the Injil that they have.
Let us mark this agreed fact, It's fully comply with my view as Gospel is not InjeelProblem #1
When we look at the New Testament, the book which is the Scripture of the Christians, we see that it nowhere makes the claim that it is a book that was "given to Jesus". Christians and Muslims will agree the New Testament consists of several books that were written by followers of Jesus (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) AFTER the ascension of Jesus. Most defiantly not a book handed to Jesus, if no mention of this is made in the New Testament Manuscript, historical teaching of the early Church or ant tradition we know off we are left with one of two choices:-
It's the first one, Injeel was given to Al-MassehTherefore, the Injil can EITHER be a book given to Jesus,
OR
It can be the book that the Christians hold as they Holy Scriptures.
TrueBut It Can Not Be Both.
Good to accept that Prophet was unlettered. As per our belief, he receives the Quran from Almighty. This what Almighty told. He doesn't speak on his own.Reconciling Problem #1
Muhammad was unlettered, that is could not read or write and apparently assumed that the Scripture of the Christians (and Jews) would be very similar to the Quran, the book which he thought he received from Allah. However, Muhammad was clearly ignorant of the matter. The essential nature of the Quran and the Bible are very different. A book "given to Jesus" in a similar way as Muhammad claims to have received the Quran does not exist and Christians have never claimed that such a book existed at any time.
The correct word is Injeel إنجيل not the GospelTherefore the claim of Surah 5:46 (and we bestowed on him the Gospel) is merely a wrong idea that sprang from the mind of Muhammad.
Thank you This is exactly what I'm telling:Problem #2
Muslims claim the Injil has been lost, and would be a point for consideration if the author of the Quran made only statements like those found in Surah 5:46 and 19:30. Muslims could have said the Injil of Jesus was simply lost or Jesus indeed received such a book but, somehow, it disappeared. Further Muslims also could have claimed that the New Testament clearly is something very different from the Injil as defined by the Quran, and could have concluded that therefore they do not believe in the Christian New Testament since the Quran does not endorse it.
Based on wrong assumptionsHowever, if we follow the Islamic faith and tradition the Quran id Allahs word unchanged and perfect thus we cannot avoid the balance of the statement in the Quran about the Injil. The Quran identifies the Injil as the Scripture of the Christians.Therefore, since the Injil is the book of the Christians, the Quran makes a blatantly wrong claim about the basic nature of the Injil. It neither is nor ever was a book given to Jesus.Nothing in Quran is said "Christians". Allah in Quran said about "People of the Book", Injeel, Al-Masseh, Nasara
Wrong conclusion based on wrong assumptions.Reconciling Problem #2
How could this error arise in the mind of Muhammad? As with other so called revelations Muhammad imposes his own ideas into the Quran. He may have heard statements like in the first verse of the Gospel according to Mark:
“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, ...”
And mistakenly thought that this meant the same as the book presented to him in the cave by the spirit of a Angel of light. Therefore Muhammad projected his own experience of receiving revelation of a book (the Quran) on Jesus and simply assumed that the book of Jesus that was held sacred by his followers must also have been a book given to Jesus (like the sacred book of the Muslims is the book given to Muhammad). However, Muhammad was wrong about this, and this mistake exposes the Quran as a forgery. The Quran is not divine revelation but a collection of mistaken assumptions by its author.
I like the fact that "no Christian says there are not scribble and transmission errors in the Bible"But the Bible is Corrupted!
Muslim are open about that anything that contradicts the Quran is a fabrication, false or corrupted. But this does not solve problem. Here are two reasons why this is not a solution:-
Firstly, the Quran never claims that the Injil is corrupted. There are certain accusations against the Jews, but no charge that the Christians corrupted their Scripture.
Secondly, no Christian says there are not scribble and transmission errors in the Bible, however non that effect the message and or doctrines of faith. Most defiantly none that would explain the fundamental difference in the nature of the Quran and New Testament.
For illustration: The Quran is (allegedly) a book that was "sent down" from Allah to Muhammad. It was (supposedly) not written by Muhammad but given to him by Allah. On the other hand, the Hadith are memories of the companions and followers of Muhammad, formulated and written up by Muslims long after the death of Muhammad. They are their recollection of what Muhammad said and did.
Would it be possible for anyone to change the Quran (the book given to Muhammad) into a collection of hadiths without the Muslim community realizing that their scripture had changed into something entirely different?
You're requested to provide one evidence for discrepancy or change in Quran between the oldest one and the most modern one or across different geographiesWithout doubt, the Muslim answer will be a resounding NO. But if that is impossible for the Muslim book and community, why would any Muslim think that this would have been possible in the Christian community? Originally, the Christians had a "book given to Jesus" but one day they woke up and their scripture had turned into a collection of writings by followers of Jesus and nobody realized the change, and nobody protested against it? Believing such a theory demands a lot of blind faith in the Quran. It is impossible. Anyone with the least bit of common sense will have to conclude that this cannot possibly have happened, and this implies that the author of the Quran simply made an error regarding the nature of the Christian Scripture.
No Injeel is not New Testimony, You've stated this yourself above.Therefore we can conclude the Injil is the same as the New Testament of Mohammad’s time, Textual history confirm since 600AD to date there are no changes in the New Testament, this is confirmed in silence as the Quran does not state the bible is corrupted. Thus the Quran support the Bible of the Christians as we have it today as authentic and the scripture used by Christians.
Respectfully, I probably don't know enough of the finer details of your religion to speak with enough knowledge to even make it a worthwhile discussion. I agree that Yeshua was raised as a Torah observant Jew... and when I hear WWJD (What would Jesus do?) I think to myself, "He would have kept the Torah, perfectly in fact." I also don't view his mission as one that was designed to create a new religion and I think this is borne-out by the fact that until the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132-135AD) (ish) Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism. In fact, in practice, early Christianity was virtually indistinguishable from most of Judaism. That isn't to add weight to the religion we see as Judaism today... but I believe that if the two sects of Pharisees and what they taught was understood, much context would be added to the NT for many.Ken,
Al-Masseh grown, educated, prayed, circumcised,,, as per Mosa's Law. This is from NT itself. All his followers during his life were Jews. In fact, he didn't bring a new religion "Christianity". He was sent to the "Israels lost sheep" as per NT.
This is somehow nearby the Islamic belief in Al-Masseh's mission.
Regards
ِAbsolutly no.So do we understand from this you accept the New Testament as authentic?
That is interesting. While I believe one has the right to make up their own mind (meaning, I won't try to share other views unless you want to hear them) I have to say that I see GREAT consistency in the other NT manuscripts. Not only with each other, but with the Tanach (OT) and with many of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Not only that, the Targumim that were written 30+ years BEFORE Yeshua, might have been written by a Christian as they so align to what is revealed throughout the NT.ِAbsolutly no.
To be fair, I don't say it's all forged or false. It has remains of true words and history of Al-Masseh.
It has remains of Injeel the revealed book to Al-Massih.
It has a lot of untrue history and teaching.
With 500000 variations between manuscripts, We're not able to distinguish the true and orignial teaching and history of Al-Masseh
Regards
I do agree with this.Respectfully, I probably don't know enough of the finer details of your religion to speak with enough knowledge to even make it a worthwhile discussion. I agree that Yeshua was raised as a Torah observant Jew... and when I hear WWJD (What would Jesus do?) I think to myself, "He would have kept the Torah, perfectly in fact." I also don't view his mission as one that was designed to create a new religion and I think this is borne-out by the fact that until the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132-135AD) (ish) Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism. In fact, in practice, early Christianity was virtually indistinguishable from most of Judaism. That isn't to add weight to the religion we see as Judaism today... but I believe that if the two sects of Pharisees and what they taught was understood, much context would be added to the NT for many.
I don't knowWhat I personally see, is Messiah walking prophetically on an existing path that had been strayed away from by the Lost Sheep (i.e. the Northern Kingdom) and walked on but not to the full intent of God by Judah (i.e. the Southern Kingdom).
OKThere are some who view Islam (and I am not speaking of its more radical forms) as a people who are part of God's plan and will be, as will Christians and Jews, joined as one into the self-same family. There are others who see Islam (the more radical forms) as the Beast of Revelation. I don't know enough to say... I do believe the Arabs are a descendant of Abraham... and one way or the other that counts. But again, I lack the information to take a firm stance so I won't. Instead... I will just keep doing what I believe the Lord has called me to do.
Shalom.
Ken
Unfortunately, Christian researchers who are specialized in Bible study don't share the same opinion.That is interesting. While I believe one has the right to make up their own mind (meaning, I won't try to share other views unless you want to hear them) I have to say that I see GREAT consistency in the other NT manuscripts. Not only with each other, but with the Tanach (OT) and with many of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Not only that, the Targumim that were written 30+ years BEFORE Yeshua, might have been written by a Christian as they so align to what is revealed throughout the NT.
I understand accepting the gospels as a reliable source for Messiah's life... but they come out of that same group of manuscripts you have issues with. The oldest full NT we have is the Peshitta which is in Aramaic, and it is incredibly consistent (there are SOME variations) with the Greek manuscripts that come from a later time. I honestly can understand why you might view some of the later letters as being unreliable. I do NOT see them as such.... but I now understand why many do, especially when that person has a Semitic background. But that is a topic that I probably prefer not to have openly... some things I would say would be easy to take out of context unless I was given the time to lay the whole case out... which in a forum like this, is very hard to do.
Injeel is totally different from Gospels in many ways:
- Allah told us about Injeel إنجيل as a book revealed to Al-Masseh personally via Gabriel
- Injeel is a revealed book to the Prophet Al-Masseh
- Injeel is like Torah and Quran
- It's not subject to be edited
- It's a false translation to translate it to Injeel as Gospel(s)
What about Gospel(s) ?
- It's created/written by Mark, Luke, Matteo, and John
Nothing in Quran about these 4 Apostles
There is no evidences that Al-Masseh has reviewed/read/written/said these books
Gospel as somehow like History of Jesus-Christ. Luke 1:1 "I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus"
It's not the interpretation it's about the context.
If you want to understand a book, you can't cut peaces out of context and ask questions.
You need to know about language, environment, circumstances, history to understand the context of a statement.
Luke's writing is just an investigation (not an eye witness even)
Luke's writing is just a letter from someone to a friend
From the above, there is no connection between Injeel and what is known as Gospel(s). The word Gospel is not in Quran in any of the verses you've listed.
Absoultly false as it's based on a false assumption that Al-Masseh's Injeel is same as the Gosepl's of Mark, Luke, Mathew, and John
Another false results based on 3 false assumptions:
- Injeel is not the Gospel(s)
"Christian(s)" is not in Quran at all. Quran calls Jews who believed in Al-Masseh as prophet نصارى which means supporters, helpers, followers not Christians
Gospel in Prophet Mohamed era is the same as the one exist today. I guide you to 3 subjects :
- Textual variants in the New testament which is known as textual criticism. The latest studies lead to 400.000 variations between different manuscripts after excluding the typo and spelling mistakes
- What is the oldest date of a complete book or letter ?
- Where are the books that ancient Christians in Arabic Pensula have used ?
There is no single evidence or proof that a letter has been changed.
The NT is not the Injeel mentioned in Quran.
I don't have an Aramaic primacy... I think the NT is made up of mostly Hebrew works, some Aramaic, perhaps a few in Greek. Not once have I come across any evidence at all that suggests the Peshitta was translated from Greek. The disciples were Jews not Romans... I think the idea of all the original letters being written in Greek works well in a dispensational, anomian, anti-Semitic culture but is not consistent with any decent historical analysis.Unfortunately, Christian researchers who are specialized in Bible study don't share the same opinion.
The variations between manuscripts from all languages are counted as many as 400.000-500.000 variations including Peshitta.
Peshitta (Syriac) was translated from Greek manuscript. Some researchers claim that it's from 2nd century but others say it's from 5th to 8th century.
Also, it misses some books and chapters from some books (may it didn't exist at that time).
Problems With Peshitta Primacy
Regards
ِAbsolutly no.
To be fair, I don't say it's all forged or false. It has remains of true words and history of Al-Masseh.
It has remains of Injeel the revealed book to Al-Massih.
It has a lot of untrue history and teaching.
With 500000 variations between manuscripts, We're not able to distinguish the true and orignial teaching and history of Al-Masseh
Regards
I don't have an Aramaic primacy... I think the NT is made up of mostly Hebrew works, some Aramaic, perhaps a few in Greek. Not once have I come across any evidence at all that suggests the Peshitta was translated from Greek. The disciples were Jews not Romans... I think the idea of all the original letters being written in Greek works well in a dispensational, anomian, anti-Semitic culture but is not consistent with any decent historical analysis.
Again, you are welcome to whatever it is you believe, I have no intention of trying to clone myself.I do appreciate your thoughts but I don't agree with some things you said. Shalom.
Doug, why don't you address the subject not the person?Once again Limo I see you have replied without understanding of what I have written or what is written in your Holy Book the Quran.
Look Doug,However my rebuttal follows:-
Yes I mentioned all these point in post #1 and accept this is the Islamic belief. However my problem is the Quran does not support this in its entirety.
Yes this is common knowledge, nothing new here.
Here are a few Surahs with the Tafsir (Islamic commentary)
Surah 19:12 "O John, hold on to the Scripture firmly," and We gave him wisdom in his youth.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
And two years after his birth God exalted be He said to him ‘O John! Hold on to the Scripture namely the Torah firmly’ earnestly. And We gave him judgement prophethood while still a child a three-year old;
Clearly referring to John the Baptist
Surah 5:110
110 When Allah will say, "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My favor upon you and upon your mother, how I supported you with the Holy Spirit.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
Mention when God said ‘O Jesus son of Mary remember My favour to you and to your mother be thankful for it; when I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit.
Surah 3:52-53
When Jesus sensed disbelief on their part, he said, "Who are my allies towards Allah?" The disciples said, "We are Allah's allies; we have believed in Allah, and bear witness that we submit." "Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the Messenger, so count us among the witnesses."
Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza
And when Jesus sensed when he became aware of their disbelief and they plotted to kill him he said ‘Who will be my helpers departing unto God?’ to help His religion; The disciples said ‘We will be helpers of God those who assist His religion they were Jesus’s intimates and the first to believe in him. They were twelve men who were of pure white complexion hawar; but some say that they were called hawāriyyūn because they were bleachers of clothes qassārūn; we believe in we accept the truth of God; witness O Jesus that we have submitted.
Clearly Jesus disciples, Mathew Mark, John and so on, which after Jesus Crucifixion were know as apostles.
Please take note that these are not my words but directly from your Quran as revealed by Allah
If you had of read post # 1 you would see this is what I said.
Funny you take about rules and reading things in context, the next verse says what ...........
As we know you edited the scripture to suit you argument, not very honest of you is it, funny against your claim of reading things incontext as noted above.
Luke 1:1-4
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
That is clear from the scripture, what is your point.
I have sited a number of Surah saying other wise. Therefore to accept your claim above means to deny what the Quran is teaching.
I have sited a number of Surah saying other wise. Therefore to accept your claim above means to deny what the Quran is teaching. Besides the quran itself say it is clear and easy to understand.
Ok the third time you have said this and still its your word against the Quran. Which should I believe.
Here are 3 verses from surah 2 alone and there are many more.
Have you actually read the quran or do you just reciet it in blind faith of what your Iman tells you?
[2:62]Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and act righteously—will have their reward with their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
ITANI - Allah
[2:111]And they say, "None will enter Heaven unless he is a Jew or a Christian." These are their wishes. Say, "Produce your proof, if you are truthful."
ITANI - Allah
[2:113]The Jews say, "The Christians are not based on anything;" and the Christians say, "The Jews are not based on anything." Yet they both read the Scripture. Similarly, the ignorant said the same thing. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection regarding their differences.
ITANI - Allah
No of this has anything to do with the topic of the thread. since you do not under stand the Quran why would you want to discuss textual variants for, we know they there.
Be accurate , you've raised some claims for contradiction not for changes in Quran.We have already discussed this in the associated thread and you failed to offer any proof. Is not the topic of this thread
As you wish but this is not true.Clearly the Quran does not agree with you.
secondly all you offer is I say so comments with no references to the Quran.
So I think in this case I will go with the Quran version.
Regards Doug
You're saying what I'm sayingI don't have an Aramaic primacy... I think the NT is made up of mostly Hebrew works, some Aramaic, perhaps a few in Greek. Not once have I come across any evidence at all that suggests the Peshitta was translated from Greek. The disciples were Jews not Romans... I think the idea of all the original letters being written in Greek works well in a dispensational, anomian, anti-Semitic culture but is not consistent with any decent historical analysis.
Again, you are welcome to whatever it is you believe, I have no intention of trying to clone myself.I do appreciate your thoughts but I don't agree with some things you said. Shalom.
No good or bad reference in Quran to NTFair or not you have shown no proof to show the reference in the quran to the New Testament are false or thast it was a book revealed to Jesus.
Textual criticism was brought to respond to false claim that NT was not changed since 6th centuryTrying to move the topic to textual critisim is seen as your agreement to the Quranic passage I have offered proving Muhammad accepted the NT as we have it today.
Beside the fact I notice you have added a 100,000 errors to the NT from your yesterday post, this shows again you are making up facts as you go alone. It seems to me you are the only one concerned with the NT errors and not the Christians. Therefore you argument is mute.
It's you who brought the false point of unchanged NTAgain with respect I ask you to keep to the topic of the thread.
Regards Doug
Doug, why don't you address the subject not the person?
Quran is in Arabic. Right?
In Islam, this is the only certified language for prayer.
In Quran, Allah told us about المسيح which should be transferred to English and other languages as Almasseh no more no less
If stupid translators translated to Jesus Christ, this is totally wrong and against islamic belief . Clear ?The quran States:-
[57:25] We sent Our messengers with the clear proofs, and We sent down with them the Book and the Balance, that humanity may uphold justice.
If this is intended only for Arabian reading and speaking people, then this excluded half of the Islamic community. Thus un-clear as to it purpose, leading many Muslims in itself astray with a once way ticket to hell.
Further one would expect in 1929 when the international standard version of the Quran came out in english the translators woul;d have made sure it was clear for non speaking Arabs to understand it.
Thus your quotes above make no sense and in fact simply show the weakness of the Quran and limitation in its scope of the final revelation.
Same with Injeel إنجيل it should be transfeded as Injeel not gospel.
Same with نصارى Nasara shouldn't be Christians
If this is clear then fine, if not you must consult anyone who is knowledgeable in Arabic the language
So, nothing in Quran said about Jesus Christ, nor gospels nor Christians.
The word Injil occurs twelve times in the Quran and refers to the book given to Jesus. Muslim scholars [who?] generally agree that Injil refers to the true Gospel, bestowed upon Jesus by God.
Arabic terms. In Arabic-speaking cultures, two words are commonly used for Christians: Naṣrānī (نصراني), plural Naṣārā (نصارى) is generally understood to be derived from Nazareth through the Syriac (Aramaic); Masīḥī (مسيحي) means followers of the Messiah.
Once again you are talking from an emotional point ans not from the truth your Quran speaks off.
I think once again you have not read the post in that thread, I specifically site the satanic verses for example discussed in detail, were Muhammad change the revelation.Be accurate , you've raised some claims for contradiction not for changes in Quran.
As you wish but this is not true.
Finally, nothing in Quran about jesus Christ, nor about gospel, nor about Christians
In Quran, Allah told us about Almasseh, his book Injeel, his true folowers Nasara
I have offered you as proof a few Surahs defending this.
You have two choice
1) Believe you Holy Text
or
2) Deny the revelations in the Quran as False.
And how dose this support you case for the NT been authenticated by Muhammad in the Quran?No good or bad reference in Quran to NT
Textual criticism was brought to respond to false claim that NT was not changed since 6th century
Moving from 400 thousands to 500 thousands was done by Christians researchers not by me
It's you who brought the false point of unchanged NT
Regards
Will comment in a moment.Ken
with respect I have asked you to keep your conversion to the thread topic and again I see you discussing textual criticism and thus purposefully derailing answers to the question at hand.
You are welcome to start your own thread if this is what you wish to discuss.
Regards Doug
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