The greatest hypocrytes

Willtor · Jan 4, 2006

GrinningDwarf said:
Can you explain this in light of Romans 14:1-15:13? Specifically,

Seems to me that paul is saying here, effectively, if you want to worship on Sunday...great. If you want to worship on Saturday...great. Just worship and don't try to push your convictions off on others in these matters.

To some extent. However, the Church must set some policy so that it can meet. It is generally accepted that it will meet on the Sabbath. Thus, the question becomes: on which day will we observe the Sabbath?

GrinningDwarf · Jan 4, 2006

Willtor said:
To some extent. However, the Church must set some policy so that it can meet. It is generally accepted that it will meet on the Sabbath. Thus, the question becomes: on which day will we observe the Sabbath?

Of course, for orderly worship each church needs members to agree upon a meeting day.

Incidentally, we see the beginings of Sunday worship meetings in Acts!!

Acts 20:7 7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

And it's also mentioned in 1 Corinthians...

! Cor. 16:1-2 1Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

vincejohn · Jan 4, 2006

It is not about worship like I stated in my first thread, it is about the day of rest. Who gave them permission to change the day of rest ..was it Paul did this start from Paul. I serve Holy Jesus as taught by the 12 Apostles.

Willtor · Jan 4, 2006

vincejohn said:
It is not about worship like I stated in my first thread, it is about the day of rest. Who gave them permission to change the day of rest ..was it Paul did this start from Paul. I serve Holy Jesus as taught by the 12 Apostles.

This is not a good progression. I am concerned that this is leading to a refutation of the bulk of the NT, which was not written by the initial 12 Apostles. It is important to realize that Paul was an Apostle. Not that he was one of the initial followers of Christ, but that he was a witness of Christ after the resurrection, and was acknowledged by the other Apostles as an Apostle.

vincejohn · Jan 5, 2006

Paul is the leader of the first christian sect that seperated themselves from the 12 Apostles. In Revelations Jesus speaks of Paul and it must be him, as a false Apostle from Ephesus. The New Jerusalem as testified in Revelations is based on the foundation of the 12 Apostles and the lamb and this is the last prophecies given by Holy Jesus Yeshua to John. In it it also says the dragon will pursue the true church that ''keeps the commandments of God and the witness of Jesus''
I am a part of this true church. There are many of us scattered all over the earth and probably many on this forum.

CuddlyTeddyBear · Jan 5, 2006

There are two laws, God's laws or the Mosaic laws from the Old Testament which some Jews adhere to and then the laws of Christ in the New Testament.

If you accept Jesus as your Lord you follow his laws and as far as I remember he only had 2. Love thy neighbour and love thy God. Jesus came not to abolish the old laws but to complete them, so where as we are not under the old laws but under Christ's laws. A true Christian would love his neighbour as himself so he would not kill his brother, hate his sister, steal from another, covet his neighbour's spouse or belongings and respect his parents. A true follower of Christ would love God and have no other gods before him, would set aside a day of worship/fast what have you, would not lie before God or would not use his name for blasphemy.

Instead of having an entire list of rules and regulations Jesus put them all together in two little reminders to live by: Love others and Love God.

CrazyforYeshua · Jan 5, 2006

vincejohn said:
Jesus never broke any Sabbath laws. You are allowed to eat. Ignatious is not greater than the Bible.

Actually, Yeshua did break Sabbath laws:

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.Luke 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.Luke 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.Luke 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.Luke 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?Luke 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?Luke 13:17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

There were other people He healed on the Sabbath day. The Jewish leaders had made a mockery of the Sabbath by imposing hundreds of laws, and Yeshua was trying to show them the grace of God isn't limited to mans' ideas. He also said He was Lord of the Sabbath, so I think Sunday worship is not something the Lord worries about, it is Old Testament law, we no longer live by that law.

vincejohn · Jan 5, 2006

None of you know what you are talking about you are all going round in circles, is there any honest to goodness scriptually trained God breathed Holy Ghost filled brother or sister in here....

Kelly · Jan 5, 2006

Just like you, right?

Your discussion doesn't belong in this subforum. You are saying that all scripture is not God-breathed, this belongs in some sort of theological forum, not in non-denom.

vincejohn · Jan 5, 2006

Thanks for the compliment , it belongs right here where it started but I suppose you can go and complain about it.

CrazyforYeshua · Jan 5, 2006

vincejohn said:
Paul is the leader of the first christian sect that seperated themselves from the 12 Apostles. In Revelations Jesus speaks of Paul and it must be him, as a false Apostle from Ephesus. The New Jerusalem as testified in Revelations is based on the foundation of the 12 Apostles and the lamb and this is the last prophecies given by Holy Jesus Yeshua to John. In it it also says the dragon will pursue the true church that ''keeps the commandments of God and the witness of Jesus''
I am a part of this true church. There are many of us scattered all over the earth and probably many on this forum.

You need to reread the Word, Paul did not seperate from the 12 apostles, he WAS an apostle, sent out by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.Acts 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

vincejohn · Jan 5, 2006

If he was a true Apostle how come Revelations tells us the New Jerusalem will be built upon the 12 Apostles and the lamb. The 12 Apostles are the 11 plus the ordained 12th Apostle that the 11 chose after Judas.

stone · Jan 5, 2006

vincejohn,

i am sure this book will clear up some misconceptions about Paul.

http://ffoz.org/Resource/restoration.shtml

stone · Jan 5, 2006

I just noticed you can flip through some of the pages of this book at that url i posted. Flip back to what it says about Paul.

peace and grace be with you brother.

vincejohn · Jan 5, 2006

I'll check it out..peace and love of Yeshua to you also and all here...God help us.

GrinningDwarf · Jan 5, 2006

vincejohn said:
If he was a true Apostle how come Revelations tells us the New Jerusalem will be built upon the 12 Apostles and the lamb. The 12 Apostles are the 11 plus the ordained 12th Apostle that the 11 chose after Judas.

Why don't we hear another word about Mathias after he was chosen? I think Scripture makes clear that Paul is, in fact, the twelfth apostle. Don't take my word for it, though. Would you accept Peter's testimony?

2 Peter 3:15-16 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter here is calling Paul's writing's Scripture.

And I'm kinda curious...do you reject all of Paul's writings, or do you pick and choose which is valid and which is not?

Prophet01 · Jan 5, 2006

Ladies, gentelmen, please stop this two and fro, there is a very basic answer to sunday worship.

Vincejohn is right, saturday is the holy sabbath, of which we keep holy, this is not changed by sunday worship, however this command has not been done away with but the church reccognises that the new covenant brought with it another holy day, a one no less important but a day that fullfils the revelation of God to all mankind... "The Lords Day"

The lords day is not an abolishment of the Sabbath, it is a day equal to it and a day that pleases the lord of the Sabbath to be celebrated in inclusion to the sabbath or as a fullfilment of the sabbath... did Jesus not say

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

and wasnt easter sunday created for the salvation of man, not man for the salvation of easter sunday

Sunday is the lords day, the day we celebrate his ressurection, on the sabbath we celebrate the creation of the world, on the sunday we celebrate the salvation of the world, these two days are as pleasing to God as each other, didnt Jesus our saviour who rose from the dead on Sunday (the lords day) his day of victory over sin and death say...

For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath

Constantine didnt Change the sabbath to the sunday for the pagan sun worshipers, the sabbath has never been changed, Jesus said " i have come to fullfill the law, not to abolish it" and it was Jesus Christ, himself that fullfilled the divine revelation of almighty god.... I am the begining and the end, the begining of the week, the lords day and the seventh day, the end of the week, the sabbath.. fullfilled - not abolished.. the begining and the end, alpha and omega... to him be all Glory and honour forever and ever amen!

Ps, sunday worship by the apostles is alluded to in the bible well before constantine, I know many of you are not at grips with the book of revelation but, when John says

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day

He litteraly means he was celebrating Mass on Sunday

Anyway I hope I have given you a little insight into the understanding of the lords day and how it is a fullfilment of the sabbath, the celebration of creation and its salvation, how it is a visible sign of the true and living God in the world, how these two days as a fullfilment of Gods plan for the world reflects his most holy self as the begining and the end of all things.

God bless

vincejohn · Jan 5, 2006

Prophet 1 that has been the closest post and blessed actually to what I have been trying to say. To instill in people that the Holy Sabbath still exists and Sunday is a worship day where as Sabbath actually Friday evening to Saturday evening still exists.

Prophet01 · Jan 5, 2006

oh yeah it still exists alright sometimes I go to church on the sabbath sometimes on the Lords day and sometimes I go on both

vincejohn · Jan 5, 2006

I light up a Menora Friday evening, Im Judeao Christian.

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