The Great Schism

Philip_B said:

Synodus Toletana tertia

If your latin is not good, remember that [ctrl] + [f] will launch a text search.

Search for filioque - and you will get zip.

search for Ex patre procedentem and you will get two, for the occasions in the record where the Nicene Creed is presented.

The reason I went searching was because I did not buy the argument that the filioque addressed Arianism which to my mind it clearly does not. Secondly it seemed to me absolute nonsense that Reccarred should embrace the Catholic Faith and want to change it in a single move. Of course my finding is out of step with the received information from various books I have read, however I believe the credible evidence from the Vatican archive and the sheer logic of it convince me that Toledo III was determined to be orthodox on this matter. This synod also prescribed that the creed was to be sung on all Sundays and Holy Days in the liturgy. I believe that Toledo III was strong on the Creed of the 1st Council of Constantinople and a promoter of it.

To be clear however there were clearly many who accepted a theology of double procession, such as promoted by Augustine, sometime Bishop of Hippo, where the origin of the Spirit is always the Father, though in some experiences of the Spirit the immediate source (as distinct from origin) may well be the Son.

I have done quite a bit of work on the filioque and I have changed my opinion quite significantly, and I no longer say it, even though it is the normative practice of the Church which I belong. Hope this helps.

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zippy2006 said:

Denzinger 470:

Spiritus aeque Sanctus confitendus a nobis et praedicandus est a Patre et a Filio procedere et cum Patre et Filio unius esse substantiae;
Likewise, we must profess and proclaim that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and is one substance with the Father and the Son;​

In the text you gave it can be found here:

Spiritusque sanctus confitendus a nobis, et praedicandus est a patre et filio procedere, et cum patre et filio unius esse substantiae.​

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Philip_B said:

I think you miss the point that was being made. The council certainly as you pointed out made a clear statement about procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son. As an Hispanic Council convene by Leander of Seville it is hardly surprising that there was an acceptance of the Augustinian position here, given that Augustine was a huge influence through Northern Africa and into Iberia.

The Nicene Creed however is affirmed twice in the record of the council, both times as promulgated by the 1st Council of Constantinople sans filioque.

There are two conversations related but separate, one is the question of procession, and the other in changing the creed of the council. My point was that the 3rd Council of Toledo did not change the creed, though I happily admit that they did follow Augustine in a theology of double procession. Augustine also happily accepted the Creed of the Council.

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Philip_B said:

I think you miss the point that was being made. The council certainly as you pointed out made a clear statement about procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son. As an Hispanic Council convene by Leander of Seville it is hardly surprising that there was an acceptance of the Augustinian position here, given that Augustine was a huge influence through Northern Africa and into Iberia.

The Nicene Creed however is affirmed twice in the record of the council, both times as promulgated by the 1st Council of Constantinople sans filioque.

There are two conversations related but separate, one is the question of procession, and the other in changing the creed of the council. My point was that the 3rd Council of Toledo did not change the creed, though I happily admit that they did follow Augustine in a theology of double procession. Augustine also happily accepted the Creed of the Council.

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zippy2006 said:

It seems to be a matter of textual criticism. Let me quote Denzinger again on the Third Synod of Toledo:

Besides the profession of faith, worth noting are the twenty-three anathemas against the Arian heresy and the Filioque inserted into the Constantinopolitan profession of faith, which is found for the first time in the acts of this synod (MaC 9:981D / HaC 3:472A), but it seems to be an interpolation, since it is absent in some older manuscripts, e.g. the Codex Lucensis (ninth century): cf. J. Orlandis​

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