The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

Defcon · Apr 23, 2007

loudatheist101 said:
Read the Bible.

Do you not have an answer as to where morals are derived from an atheistic worldview? I believe that until you do provide an answer explaining why certain things are morally wrong from an atheistic worldview, that any argument made by you concerning the Christian God is pointless. This is because you obviously don't care about philosphy (metaphysics,epistemology, and ethics) or else you would argue in favor of your worldview - atheism. Instead, you rant against this particular worldview without the ability to define your presuppositions. For all the accusations you lay on Christians, why can't you define your worldview at ANY level of depth?

Morcova · Apr 23, 2007

faith guardian said:
I feel your argument is flawed mainly because of this free will argument.
But there is more to it than that. Despite our free will, we have our Lord God to whom we can turn when things go tough. If we seek Him of our own free will, He does not turn us back.

Actually it's your argument that is flawed, christians tell us about their god who wants us to think of him as our father, who loves us so much, but when something horrible happens they switch over to a deist god who sits back and watches.

Sorry you can't have it both ways, a loving father would have done something.

Answer this question for me, if you knew that your children were going to be murdered by a madman and you had the power to stop him before it happened... would you? Or would you let it happen because you didn't want to violate his "free will"?

Morcova · Apr 23, 2007

Defcon said:
By what basis or standard are you able to determine what is horrific? You are assuming that everyone views this event as 'wrong' or 'horrific'.

Are you actually arguing that the murder of 32 people isn't horrific?

FrenzyforChrist · Apr 23, 2007

loudatheist101 said:
What the heck is having free will on earth if you do not get it for enternity in Heaven? Thpse 32 other people killed had no free wil. It was not their choice to die.

What about natural disastors? Do hurricanes have the choice too?

Have you ever once wondered if maybe free will is just an excuse to questions like the one I asked?

No But the Guy who did the killing had a choice and thoes people who dies had chocies that coul of afeccted where they were at. And as for naturl dasters. people who are killed by them have choices to leve or stay where they are at. Sometimes we are affected and dont have control of situations. I mean Im not totally oblivious to that. But forthe most part people have there own frewill to make chioces. And as for what the other perseon said. YeaI know Im not perfetct and I know I make the wrorng choices. I mean can you name me any one alive today who is perfect?

JBrian · Apr 23, 2007

Well, if the God you all know and love truely existed, this is how He would have handled this recent massicare. (And all others)

I find this statement incredibly arrogant. I mean, a finite, limited being saying what an infinite, unlimited being would do.

1. He would *know* about this horrific event before it even occured, as He is all knowing.

2. He would *love* everyone involved so much, He would not want to end their beautiful short lives so soon. As God is all knowing.

3. He would be *powerful* enough to stop this event from happening. He would have the power to help the killer with his mental problems, before the guy goes and kill 32 of God's children, and himself. As God is all powerful.

All you have said here is that it is possible for God to stop the events from happening not that He must. Big difference.

Now, none of these things happened, during *any* massicare. It's almost as if there is no god at all...and maybe we need to realize that.

What you are saying here is that just because God did not act in the way that pleased you He must not exist. Non sequitor. It is possible that He used these events for His greater good and glory. As the first response said, free will allows our world to experience these horrors. I do not mean any disrespect to you, however, you as a finite being and having finite knowledge cannot possibly say that you know for certain how an infinte being having infinite knowledge must act in every situation.

Just because God does not fit in our little box does not mean He does not exist.

Brian

ManOfTheAmish · Apr 23, 2007

As someone else here has stated freewill exists where man can choose good or evil amongst his brethren and God himself does not disturb this freewill that he has created because it would contradict just that " Freewill."

These people's lives were cut short by another human being and not that of God it should also be noted.

We must hope that these people before their deaths lived a good well balanced life before their perishing as all life is sacred.

ManOfTheAmish · Apr 23, 2007

m9lc said:
Christians say that no one does wrong or feels hatred in Heaven, right? (If anyone did wrong, then there would be pain in Heaven, which there isn't.) That being the case, according to you all, we have no free will in Heaven, do we? So that makes the "free will" argument kinda moot.

Noone has come back from heaven to tell the tale so I have a hard time listening to people giving vast descriptions of the afterlife.

My faith goes in the hands of God and the word for most men are easily corrupted.

Morcova · Apr 23, 2007

JBrian said:
I find this statement incredibly arrogant. I mean, a finite, limited being saying what an infinite, unlimited being would do.

It's not arrogant at all, god is very clear of how he wishes for us to see him... "our father who art in heaven"... so no it's not arrogant to critisize a being who wishes to be thought of as a father for sitting back while his children are mudered when he could put a stop to it.

ManOfTheAmish · Apr 23, 2007

m9lc said:
How does seeing miracles reduce your free will? Because it makes it obvious that you should believe? How does making something obvious take away your free will?

Miracles take away your free will no more than having eyes takes away your free will to jump off a bridge.

But Christians on Earth do evil, too. If they choose to do evil on Earth, but don't when they're in Heaven, they've obviously lost their free will.

How does seeing miracles reduce your free will?

Because it makes it obvious that you should believe? How does making something obvious take away your free will?

Miracles take away your free will no more than having eyes takes away your free will to jump off a bridge.

We are all born into this world with freewill but at the sametime we are born with limitations of naturality.

Could you please elaborate more how miracles are against freewill?

ManOfTheAmish · Apr 23, 2007

Morcova said:
It's not arrogant at all, god is very clear of how he wishes for us to see him... "our father who art in heaven"... so no it's not arrogant to critisize a being who wishes to be thought of as a father for sitting back while his children are mudered when he could put a stop to it.

It is men who murders other men not God.

JBrian · Apr 24, 2007

Morcova said:
It's not arrogant at all, god is very clear of how he wishes for us to see him... "our father who art in heaven"... so no it's not arrogant to critisize a being who wishes to be thought of as a father for sitting back while his children are mudered when he could put a stop to it.

As an omnipotent Father, Father knows best; not His inferior, limited, finite children. He even promises us hardship and suffering in His Word. We should not love Him simply when He is "nice" to us, or does things the way we think they should be done, we should love Him becase He is the Sovereign King of the universe.

ManOfTheAmish · Apr 24, 2007

loudatheist101 said:
What the heck is having free will on earth if you do not get it for enternity in Heaven? Thpse 32 other people killed had no free wil. It was not their choice to die.

What about natural disastors? Do hurricanes have the choice too?

Have you ever once wondered if maybe free will is just an excuse to questions like the one I asked?

Men originally were only meant to live in jungles before spreading throughout the earth and obviously a species that dominates the earth as humans do will come into conflict with their surroundings.

Also all organisms and beings die whether it be from natural elements or old age. There is nothing inherently evil about death.

ManOfTheAmish · Apr 24, 2007

Morcova said:
Actually it's your argument that is flawed, christians tell us about their god who wants us to think of him as our father, who loves us so much, but when something horrible happens they switch over to a deist god who sits back and watches.

Sorry you can't have it both ways, a loving father would have done something.

Answer this question for me, if you knew that your children were going to be murdered by a madman and you had the power to stop him before it happened... would you? Or would you let it happen because you didn't want to violate his "free will"?

God must admire us in someway for we have existance and being.

Often times when one looks at corruption or malicous scenarios it is of man's own doing.

Also your last paragraph I would say that man in his freewill has responsibility of upkeeping it and therefore God lays this responsibility deep in man to maintain it.

Morcova · Apr 24, 2007

ManOfTheAmish said:
It is men who murders other men not God.

Non-sequiter.

It is god who has the power to stop men from murdering is it not?

Morcova · Apr 24, 2007

JBrian said:
As an omnipotent Father, Father knows best; not His inferior, limited, finite children.

So you concept of "father" is someone who watches his children die when he has the power to stop them from dying?

ManOfTheAmish · Apr 24, 2007

Morcova said:
Non-sequiter.

It is god who has the power to stop men from murdering is it not?

You can't disprove my point. My post was quite valid.

It was a man who went on the campus in his free will who shot and killed other people. God had nothing to do with it.

JBrian · Apr 24, 2007

Morcova said:
So you concept of "father" is someone who watches his children die when he has the power to stop them from dying?

My point is that just because God has the power to stop it does not mean that He will. That does not make Him less loving. God gave men free will. The post just quoted is quite valid. A man pulled the trigger, not God. God does not stop all of the bad things from happening. It is part of His sovereign plan. Since God is infinitely wise and you are finite it follows that you do not know as much as God. Therefore, it is wrong for man to say God is unjust. Man acts the way He does because he is sinful and has free will. God can use these tragedies for His glory. An example is Jesus. He allowed Jesus to die for a greater purpose, namely, to save His people from their sins.

Thanks for your thoughts.

JBrian · Apr 24, 2007

Morcova said:
Non-sequiter.

It is god who has the power to stop men from murdering is it not?

This is not a non sequitor (note the spelling). Simply because God has the power does not mean that He must use it.

Morcova · Apr 24, 2007

ManOfTheAmish said:
You can't disprove my point. My post was quite valid.

It was a man who went on the campus in his free will who shot and killed other people. God had nothing to do with it.

Of course god has something to do with it, he watched while it happened and didn't lift a finger.

Morcova · Apr 24, 2007

JBrian said:
This is not a non sequitor (note the spelling). Simply because God has the power does not mean that He must use it.

Because god loves us so much he's willing to watch us die horribly.

Yeah..... you people have a different concept of love than i do.

The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

------ Dr. Greg Bahnsen

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.

Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.

Well-Known Member

Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.

Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.

Well-Known Member

Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.

Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Christian Philosopher And Naturalist.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency