Tree of Life
Hide The Pain
- Feb 15, 2013
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Jason, with you I would be wasting my breath.My username is Bible Highlighter.
Oh, and if I am missing it by a mile, than surely you can explain how the different aspects of salvation above do not support my conclusions by explaining those verses I provided in my OP. In other words, give a word for word commentary on a few of the verses for those aspects of salvation you disagree with in my OP.
Blessings to you in the Lord today.
Nobody God forced to be saved regrets it. They would not be saved if he didn't. And the New Birth makes us willing and happier than ever compared to the old life.
Jesus says God must drag us to himself. But nobody complains and gives thanks instead. I loved my sins and hated God when he took me into the number. Do I complain? Never. I say instead "I'm a Christian, and not by choice".Wow. You are actually the first Calvinist I have talked with in a long while who admits to God forcing salvation upon a person. Most seem to dislike that word for some reason. If you believe God forces salvation upon people, then by all means, explain the free will verses I posted in my previous post to you.
Jason, with you I would be wasting my breath.
Jesus says God must drag us to himself. But nobody complains and gives thanks instead. I loved my sins and hated God when he took me into the number. Do I complain? Never. I say instead "I'm a Christian, and not by choice".
Consider the audience and the destruction of Jerusalem looming.Yet, Peter said, " Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
(Acts of the Apostles 2:40).
Consider the audience and the destruction of Jerusalem looming.
I would be wasting my breath.
We are part of the process of sanctification by continually saying "yes" to the Lord, but we cannot sanctify our own selves; this is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. Only by going deeper into the grace pour out for us through Jesus and understanding God's plan to redeem His creation you will be able to become more like Jesus because you will realize He truly does love us. He didn't save us to for us to "become good" He saved us because He created us and we were born to carry His glory on earth. We are to be a manifestation of the invisible; God's invisible nature being visible. He knows what we are capable of but we don't know. Some will enter out of love while in rest because they already know God, others will enter out of fear and will know Him there. Time will eventually end and the physical and spiritual will become one as before, but instead of men ruling earth, the Father will be our King, He will be our ruler, because Jesus will give everything back to the Father.Sorry, that is not how things work. After we are saved by God's grace (Justification), we then enter the second phase of salvation (Sanctification). 1 John 1:7 is a Sanctification verse that relates to our salvation. It says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. What is walking in the light? 1 John 2:9-11 essentially says (using other words) that walking in the light is loving your brother. So one has to love their brother in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse them of all sin. 1 John 3:15 says he that hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). 1 John 3:10 confirms the necessity of loving one's brother, as well.
We are part of the process of sanctification by continually saying "yes" to the Lord, but we cannot sanctify our own selves; this is the work of the Holy Spirit in us.
You said:Only by going deeper into the grace pour out for us through Jesus and understanding God's plan to redeem His creation you will be able to become more like Jesus because you will realize He truly does love us. He didn't save us to for us to "become good"
You said:He saved us because He created us and we were born to carry His glory on earth.
You said:We are to be a manifestation of the invisible; God's invisible nature being visible. He knows what we are capable of but we don't know. Some will enter out of love while in rest because they already know God, others will enter out of fear and will know Him there. Time will eventually end and the physical and spiritual will become one as before, but instead of men ruling earth, the Father will be our King, He will be our ruler, because Jesus will give everything back to the Father.
You said:As I tell people, camp on the cross. Study the reason for it because that's when you will realize what He did for you. Once you understand that and received that revelation you will understand love (God's language) and because of it the Holy Spirit softens your heart and you rest in His love. When you rest, then you start loving others because you always carry the revelation of how much God loves you from the foundation of the world and it was expressed through Jesus with a love without conditions. He gave His son for EVERYONE. It is God's pleasure that we be part of His Kingdom.
You said:The freedom that He gives me to worship Him makes me love Him even more. He is not forcing me to be good, He has taught me who I am from before the Fall. He wants His children back.
This is based on legalism, not grace.
It should not matter who came up with a word to describe something in the Bible. While men can fall into blind errors, even a blind squirrel can find a nut (among many other nuts that they missed). The point here is if you disagree with the words themselves, and or the description of those things we see in Scripture, then please explain why using the Bible. Words have meaning, and so do their definitions. Who came up with the terms is not relevant to the topic of the thread.
Saving faith PRODUCES good works. That is what the passages in James mean. If you claim to be saved but no good works are produced (and the works include changes in our behaviors and attitudes and interactions with others that line up with the Bible teaching) then they do not have saving faith. If we have been redeemed, that is, reborn from Above, purchased by the blood of Jesus, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we will produce good fruit.Yes, I am aware that Calvinists believe that others who do not not accept a regeneration before believing in Jesus are believing in Works Salvation. They believe one is regenerated in order to believe, etc. Yet, the Bible says repent and be converted (Acts of the Apostles 3:19). Granted, while Jesus says believing in Him is a work (John 6:29), by contrast, Paul was condemning "Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace in Ephesians 2:8-9. Paul was condemning Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism that did not include God's grace in the Justification Process (Which is how we are initially and ultimately saved). We are not saving ourselves primarily in anything we do when we throw ourselves down before the mercy of GOD and seek His forgiveness in Justification. This is why this aspect of salvation is not of works. Sanctification is what then follows afterwards (Ephesians 2:10). In Justification: We are also being convicted and drawn by God to seek forgiveness with the Lord (but it is still up to us to decide). But believing in Jesus is a work of God because God is drawing us to believe and He is convicting us of our sins. It's a work of God, and not the works of men that men would boast in themselves in doing that Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:9. Sanctification is what follows Justification. If this is not the case, then folks can live like devils and be saved. But we know that even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
Lets say you are a king and you have a son, and in your heart you know he is meant to be your heir, he will marry and give you grandkids. Then, when he was born someone took him from you and you didn't see him again until he was 30 years old. You found him under a bridge, dirty, poor and drunk. You come to him, you explain to him you've been searching for him for years and you explain to him who he is, his real identity. You can do two things; either yell at him, tell him to straighten up and be a man because he is a heir to your kingdom or you slowly approach him, introduce yourself because this is the first time he meets you, you clean him up, explain to Him what happened and who he truly is from the beginning, speak to him truth so he can renew his mind with the reality of who he is and the truth about his genealogy.No. Sanctification is synergistic or cooperative between both us and God.
This means we have our part to take action in addition to God working in us, as well. How so? Well, the Bible says,
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;" (1 Thessalonians 4:4).
What you said here is in direct violation of Scripture.
You said Jesus did not save us for us to become good.
Yet the Bible says,
"...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).
For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).
How do we glorify our Father in Heaven? You are not going to like it, but Jesus says,
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).
So according to Jesus, we let our light (Jesus) shine so that others may see our good works (from the Son) so that we may glorify our Father in Heaven.
It is true that Jesus will give everything back to the Father. For Jesus will give the Kingdom back to the Father.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." (1 Corinthians 15:24).
But before Christ gives the Kingdom back to the Father, there will be those who are within Christ's kingdom who offend and work iniquity who will be cast out by Christ's angels into the furnace of fire (i.e. Lake of Fire).
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).
Meaning, any who declares to be a part of Christ's kingdom who works sin and or justifies sin in some way will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
No doubt that God's grace affects us to walk correctly (Sanctification). We see this with both Paul (1 Corinthians 15:10), and with the woman who kept kissing Jesus' feet (Luke 7:45-47).
But Jesus also said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Jesus said if we keep His commandments we abide in his love (John 15:10).
These are conditions!!!
Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14); And one can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Again, these are conditions!!!
Right, I don't believe in forced salvation or that God forces us to be good. We have to cooperate with God in the good work He desires us to do through our hearts and lives. God never forces us. But He does cry out to us in love.
"I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;" (Isaiah 65:2).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).
I am not disagreeing with the intent of your post but I must point out that to say that God did anything arbitrarily is to use n oxymoron. Arbitrariness doesnot, cannot exist in God. We don't know WHY God chose who He did, the reason is contained within Himself,and it had NOTHING to do with anything good or bad in the PERSON. That does not mean His choice is arbitrary.The way it works according to scripture, all are born into a condition that at best hates God and worships idols in his name. This is as good as it gets but t also gets a lot worse. God in his mercy arbitrarily chose from this ruin some to redeem and restore to Christ's likeness. So God saves these against their will, giving them a new nature in the New Birth, which makes them repentant believers who live holy lives as a matter of habit.
God gets all the glory. Free will robs God of his glory by denying the extent of sin and the extent of God's grace. Assuming they are saving themselves through their own goodness through obedience. There's lots more wrong with free will, but this is part of it.
God does not FORCE some to be saved and some not to be saved. Reformed Theology does not teach this. You are talking with self given authority about something, trust me, you know nothing bout.God does not get the glory if He forces some to be saved, and He forces others not to be saved. That sounds more like a dictator than a loving Father. Anyways, according to the Bible: We actually glorify God by our works (Matthew 5:16).
As for Free Will:
Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.
Free Will in the Bible:
#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"
#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."
#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."
#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"
#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"
#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"
#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"
#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."
#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
Again. God did not FORCE anyone to be saved. When God chose Abraham, Moses, the entire nation of Israel, would you say that was FORCE?Nobody God forced to be saved regrets it. They would not be saved if he didn't. And the New Birth makes us willing and happier than ever compared to the old life.
“Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.”No. Sanctification is synergistic or cooperative between both us and God.
This means we have our part to take action in addition to God working in us, as well. How so? Well, the Bible says,
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;" (1 Thessalonians 4:4).
What you said here is in direct violation of Scripture.
You said Jesus did not save us for us to become good.
Yet the Bible says,
"...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).
For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12).
How do we glorify our Father in Heaven? You are not going to like it, but Jesus says,
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).
So according to Jesus, we let our light (Jesus) shine so that others may see our good works (from the Son) so that we may glorify our Father in Heaven.
It is true that Jesus will give everything back to the Father. For Jesus will give the Kingdom back to the Father.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." (1 Corinthians 15:24).
But before Christ gives the Kingdom back to the Father, there will be those who are within Christ's kingdom who offend and work iniquity who will be cast out by Christ's angels into the furnace of fire (i.e. Lake of Fire).
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).
Meaning, any who declares to be a part of Christ's kingdom who works sin and or justifies sin in some way will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
No doubt that God's grace affects us to walk correctly (Sanctification). We see this with both Paul (1 Corinthians 15:10), and with the woman who kept kissing Jesus' feet (Luke 7:45-47).
But Jesus also said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Jesus said if we keep His commandments we abide in his love (John 15:10).
These are conditions!!!
Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14); And one can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Again, these are conditions!!!
Right, I don't believe in forced salvation or that God forces us to be good. We have to cooperate with God in the good work He desires us to do through our hearts and lives. God never forces us. But He does cry out to us in love.
"I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;" (Isaiah 65:2).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).
If we know the origin of a false teaching, it is easier to show.
If we know the origin of a true teaching, it is easier to know.
I don't think you thought those things up yourself.
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