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The Fossil Record- As God Would Have Made It Through Time

OldWiseGuy

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OldWiseGuy

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Then why you feel justified in saying that evolution did not take place or is not science if you just simply do not understand evolution?

My basis for not believing it is that I don't understand it. Have you ever heard the comment, "I just don't understand why he (or she) did that?" In other words 'it doesn't compute'.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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My basis for not believing it is that I don't understand it. Have you ever heard the comment, "I just don't understand why he (or she) did that?" In other words 'it doesn't compute'.

So why don't you actually take the time to actually learn about evolution?
 
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theQuincunx5

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If it's written in English I can probably understand it.....right up to the point where it might say it 'evolved'.

So when you see "evolved" you stop understanding?
 
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theQuincunx5

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My basis for not believing it is that I don't understand it. Have you ever heard the comment, "I just don't understand why he (or she) did that?" In other words 'it doesn't compute'.

This is actually quite a reasonable response. It does not make it necessarily accurate that whatever you prefer that you feel you understand is more likely correct.

I don't really understand the extreme mathematical ends of quantum mechanics. That does not mean I disbelieve in them for that reason. It means that I just sit back and let the people who DO understand that math do their thing. Because by every metric available it seems to be working for everyone who uses that sort of information.
 
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tas8831

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Student of anatomy, claimed 135 IQ...

And relies on the appeal to complexity...
How sweet.



Let us recall, that this fellow once, seriously, wrote:

"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? "
 
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tas8831

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My basis for not believing it is that I don't understand it. Have you ever heard the comment, "I just don't understand why he (or she) did that?" In other words 'it doesn't compute'.

Interesting - can I use that justification for rejecting biblical literalism/the historicity of Genesis? It just does not compute. Thus it is false.

What a great and easy way to go through life!
 
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tas8831

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You understand that because you agree with it, not because you actually grasp the subject matter.

Then, you believe things like this:

"How do you think unconscious vocal signals get to the brain so fast when a person, or a giraffe, is suddenly surprised or frightened? "


" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain. The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe."


So weird how you DO believe some things you do not understand, but refuse to believe other things you do not understand.



It is so precious how creationists that admit ignorance of biology who nonetheless can somehow determine that essays on such subjects written by creationist propagandists are beyond reproach.
 
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tas8831

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From creationist Jerry Bergman's essay on the RLN, claimed to somehow rescue the whole discussion by a guy admitting to be ignorant of biology:

"The optic nerves do not take the shortest route to the occipital lobe of the brain (the lobe near the back of the head), but rather cross over at the optic chiasm (where the two tracts cross over in the form of an "X") for reasons now known to be based on good design."

Hmmm.... How was it determined that this is good design again?

Ah yes - a creationist said so.

Yes, they form an X.

What Jerry does not say is that at this X, half the fibers from each eye do NOT cross. So, visual input from each retina is in effect split in half, with one half sent to the same side of the brain, the other half sent to the opposite side of the brain.

Once those fibers get to the occipital lobe (and other parts), the brain must then reassemble the inputs - oh, and the images are also upside down and backwards - to produce our perception of objects.
And let's not forget the blind spots in each eye that have to be compensated for!

Such grand design - I'm sure some non-anatomist like Jerry has an essay on it somewhere that OWG will believe without question due not to his knowledge of the subject, but due to his a priori religious beliefs.
 
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tas8831

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LOL!!

Really?

You implied you know about Gray's anatomy, right?

By the way - I ALREADY provided you with a source, but you probably just didn't bother to read it. Creationists are like that - they don't actually want to know how little they know.


So, since you think Google U makes you the expert you pretend to be, I found these in a couple of minutes:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language (this is the one I linked for you before and you clearly ignored or more likely could not understand)
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf


Vagus Nerve
http://www.caam.rice.edu/~cox/wrap/vagusnerve.pdf

Why, even Wiki:
General visceral afferent fibers - Wikipedia


From here:


General visceral afferent fibers


The general visceral afferent fibers (GVA) conduct sensory impulses (usually pain or reflex sensations) from the internal organs, glands, and blood vessels to the central nervous system.[1] They are considered to be part of the autonomic nervous system. However, unlike the efferent fibers of the autonomic nervous system, the afferent fibers are not classified as either sympathetic or parasympathetic.[2]

GVA fibers create referred pain by activating general somatic afferent fibers where the two meet in the posterior grey column.

The cranial nerves that contain GVA fibers include the facial nerve (CN VII), the glossopharyngeal nerve (CN IX), and the vagus nerve (CN X).[3]

Generally, they are insensitive to cutting, crushing or burning, excessive tension in smooth muscle and some pathological conditions produce visceral pain (referred pain).[4]

Pathway
Abdomen

In the abdomen, general visceral afferent fibers usually accompany sympathetic efferent fibers. This means that a signal traveling in an afferent fiber will begin at sensory receptors in the afferent fiber's target organ, travel up to the ganglion where the sympathetic efferent fiber synapses, continue back along a splanchnic nerve from the ganglion into the sympathetic trunk, move into a ventral ramus via a white ramus communicans, and finally move into the mixed spinal nerve between the division of the rami and the division of the roots of the spinal nerve. The GVA pathway then diverges from the sympathetic efferent pathway, which follows the ventral root into the spinal column, by following the dorsal root into the dorsal root ganglion, where the cell body of the visceral afferent nerve is located.[5] Finally, the signal continues along the dorsal root from the dorsal root ganglion to a region of gray matter in the dorsal horn of the spinal column where it is transmitted via a synapse to a neuron in the central nervous system.[2]

The only GVA nerves in the abdomen that do not follow the above pathway are those that innervate structures in the distal half of the sigmoid colon and the rectum. These afferent fibers, instead, follow the path of parasympathetic efferent fibers back to the vertebral column, where the afferent fibers enter the S2-S4 sensory (dorsal root) ganglia followed by the spinal cord.[5]
Pelvis

The course of GVA fibers from organs in the pelvis, in general, depends on the organ's position relative to the pelvic pain line. An organ, or part of an organ, in the pelvis is said to be "above the pelvic pain line" if it is in contact with the peritoneum, except in the case of the large intestine, where the pelvic pain line is said to be located in the middle of the sigmoid colon.[6] GVA fibers from structures above the pain line follow the course of the sympathetic efferent fibers, and GVA fibers from structures below the pain line follow the course of the parasympathetic efferents.[6] Pain from the latter fibers is less likely to be consciously experienced.[6]


References

Moore, Keith; Anne Agur (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy, Third Edition. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. p. 635. ISBN 0-7817-6274-X.
Moore, Keith; Anne Agur (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy, Third Edition. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. pp. 34–35. ISBN 0-7817-6274-X.
Mehta, Samir et al. Step-Up: A High-Yield, Systems-Based Review for the USMLE Step 1. Baltimore, MD: LWW, 2003.
Susan,, Standring,. Gray's anatomy : the anatomical basis of clinical practice. ISBN 9780702052309. OCLC 920806541.
Moore, K.L., & Agur, A.M. (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy: Third Edition. Baltimore: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. 180. ISBN 978-0-7817-6274-8
Moore, Keith; Anne Agur (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy, Third Edition. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. p. 220. ISBN 0-7817-6274-X.​


Same source, on the special visceral afferent fibers - uh uh! this one actually mentions the larynx! Maybe this will be my Waterloo, and will provide evidence for the creationist's anatomical assertions?

Special visceral afferent fibers (SVA) are the afferent fibers that develop in association with the gastrointestinal tract.[1] They carry the special senses of smell (olfaction) and taste (gustation). The cranial nerves containing SVA fibers are the olfactory nerve (I), the facial nerve (VII), the glossopharyngeal nerve (IX), trigeminal nerve (V) and the vagus nerve (X). The facial nerve receives taste from the anterior two-thirds of the tongue; the glossopharyngeal from the posterior third. SVA fibers in the vagus originate in the larynx and pharynx.[2] The sensory processes, using their primary cell bodies from the inferior ganglion, send projections to the medulla, from which they travel in the tractus solitarius, later terminating at the rostral nucleus solitarius.[3]​


Nope. Just more evidence that the creationist is out of his depth and that his claim of studying anatomy was a farce.

And wiki again on the RLN:

Recurrent laryngeal nerve - Wikipedia


Now please provide an actual source that shows that motor impulses for vocalizations can be produced anywhere other than the Nucleus ambiguus (which in turn receives inputs from the motor speech area).

Surely you know what that is, what with your keen grasp of the relevant anatomy, right?


Of course, you would have had to understand anatomy enough to know what to search for (e.g., vagus nerve, visceral afferents, etc.) which you obviously do not (and remember that according to you, if something is obvious it must be so). This is why your keyword search technique has, every time I have seen you employ it thus far, ended up making you look foolish for linking to articles that actually undermine your position.


Funny - note that I was easily able to provide sources that actually do support my position, yet the creationist cannot seem to be able to do it ever.


PREDICTION - this will be responded to with first a one or two liner blow off, probably bringing up some ancillary subject, and perhaps later with a tangential link to a creationist essay.

Bets?
 
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doubtingmerle

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It is a great pathway for gut level emotions to affect speech. Vocalization is very complex, else we would all sound like Siri.
My gut level reaction is that your trust in gut level reactions is unjustified.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And let's not forget the blind spots in each eye that have to be compensated for!

The 'blind spots' would be unknown if science hadn't discovered them. Also one needs to have nearly perfect peripheral vision to detect them, and it's difficult even then. They are 'up and out of the way'; great design.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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My gut level reaction is that your trust in gut level reactions is unjustified.

I trust that when all the science is in I'll be justified. Science admits that it's "just beginning to understand...." (lots of stuff).
 
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OldWiseGuy

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tas8831

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If it's written in English I can probably understand it.

That tactic failed you with your take on the gut producing vocal signals - remember?




First, I have never claimed or implied that I know all there is to know on any subject - not being a YEC, I tend not to think that way in the first place.
Second, having taken graduate level anatomy and physiology classes, and having taught anatomy and neuroscience (as well as cell biology, immunology, evolution, etc.) at the college level, I think I probably know more about the matter than some retired dude that cannot seem to grasp basic freshman level biology.

For future reference - try this:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf

You might actually learn something. Doubt it, but you might.


Anyway, it is absolutely hilarious that you are trying to equate this with your farcical claims about "unconscious vocal signals" getting TO the brain.

From your link:

Our brain and gut are connected by an extensive network of neurons and a highway of chemicals and hormones that constantly provide feedback about how hungry we are, whether or not we’re experiencing stress, or if we’ve ingested a disease-causing microbe. ...

The enteric nervous system is often referred to as our body’s second brain. There are hundreds of million of neurons connecting the brain to the enteric nervous system, the part of the nervous system that is tasked with controlling the gastrointestinal system. This vast web of connections monitors the entire digestive tract from the esophagus to the anus [weird - no mention of controlling the "voice box" when scared!]....

While our “second” brain cannot compose a symphony or paint a masterpiece the way the brain in our skull can, it does perform an important role in managing the workings of our inner tube. ...

Operations of the enteric nervous system are overseen by the brain and central nervous system. The central nervous system is in communication with the gut via the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system, the involuntary arm of the nervous system that controls heart rate, breathing, and digestion...

This circuitry of neurons, hormones, and chemical neurotransmitters not only sends messages to the brain about the status of our gut, it allows for the brain to directly impact the gut environment....


Yeah - you just ignored that exposure of your "ability" to understand things in English...

....right up to the point where it might say it 'evolved'.

Right - because if you can't understand it, it must be wrong.

All the wiring is there. It just needs to be activated.

Unsupported question-begging assertion.


If only it were not 100% fantasy.

Vocalization is very complex, else we would all sound like Siri.

And yet you have failed spectacularly in even TRYING to support that rather naive and uninformed assertion, and you have totally IGNORED my repeated attempts at educating you on your folly. Such is the mindset of the Creationist.

You know - the fact that you seem to think neuronal circuits are exactly like copper wires shows how completely clueless you are about this subject.


Neurons are ONE WAY rides. Impulses for ANY vocalization (except for vocalizations caused by mechanical trauma, like getting punched in the gut, or incidental vocalizations such as during a sneeze or a cough which are caused by rapid passing of air through the larynx, not conscious effort) come from the brain, NOT the gut, NOT the aortic arch - the "wiring" is NOT there.

We can conclude that your claim of studying anatomy was a lie, plain and simple, and that your refusal to acknowledge your errors on this material, and to actually educate yourself on biology, is the result of egotism coupled with the Dunning-Kruger effect and a perhaps unconscious desire not to actually understand that your beliefs are bogus.

Sad, really.
 
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tas8831

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Hello?
 
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