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I agree with Melchizedek being treated as an allegory for Christ, but it was his lack of a genealogy recorded in the bible that the writer drew on for his allegory. It doesn't fit if everyone knew this was Shem who did have a genealogy and his father and mother are mentioned in scripture. But the bible doesn't say Melchizedek was Shem, or tell us that the Jew's knew this.The "morphosing" of Shem in Hebrews 7, was the Holy Spirit typing him as the Son of God, who is "Firstborn of earth", which is office of high priest and king. The Jews knew Melche-Zedek was Shem, but the Holy Spirit typed Him as the Son of God, who has no mother, no father, no beginning of days nor end of life.
Again there is no mention of any of this in scripture.Shem had the office of "firstborn" of earth, which was given him by Noah, who got it from Methusaleh, who got it from Enoch....and so on, back to Seth. Shem blessed Abram with the office, and Abram blessed Isaac, Isaac blessed Jacob, and from Jacob, it ended up split, after Moses, with Levi in office of high priest, and Aaron in office of Messiah. Judah ended up with office of high king, later.
When Jesus was baptized by the Levitical priest, John, he transferred the office of High Priest and High King to Jesus, and the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a Dove and anointed Him in office of Messiah, and He ever lives, as the Everlasting Father/Firstborn of earth to all His adopted [born again] sons, who ever lives to make intercession for them before the Glory above, in the office Adam lost and the Word came in flesh to ransom the earth back to Himself and redeem the lost seed of Adam, for His own sons [whosoever will].
Scripture is full of places where the Holy Spirit uses types to teach about the office, Person, and work of the Christ who was to come. That is a given.I agree with Melchizedek being treated as an allegory for Christ, but it was his lack of a genealogy recorded in the bible that the writer drew on for his allegory. It doesn't fit if everyone knew this was Shem who did have a genealogy and his father and mother are mentioned in scripture. But the bible doesn't say Melchizedek was Shem, or tell us that the Jew's knew this.
Again there is no mention of any of this in scripture.
T
When did they change their residence?
/quote]
More for you, on Shem in "Mount Moriah", and Haran as Syria.
When you go read the relevant portions of Genesis and Jasher which I made pasting from already that show the answers to a lot of what you are asking, then come back and lets both trace the journeys recorded, together, as fellow seekers of truth -Okay?Well, my question wasn't "where" but "when".
The exact location of Haran is irrelevant to this question.
When Terah left Ur of the Chaldees, did he leave his ancestors behind him in Mesopotamia or did he stop in Haran because they had moved there before him?
If Shem was Melchizedek in Jerusalem, had he moved there from Haran before Abraham came to Canaan or afterwards? And if Jacob went to the household of Shem in Haran, had Shem left Jerusalem and returned to Haran? If so, when?
And was Eber always with Shem?
I see problems reconciling any of the possible scenarios of Shem's peregrinations with the scriptural accounts of the movements of Terah, Abraham and Jacob.
For example: if Shem were already in Jerusalem when Abraham arrived in Canaan, wouldn't Abraham make a beeline for Jerusalem before settling in the area of Hebron? I mean, its right on his way and it would be appropriate to call on an ancestor of such distinction.
On the other hand, if Shem did not arrive in Jerusalem until after Abraham was in Canaan, why would Abraham not know of this?
And why would scripture depict Abraham as a foreigner living among strangers if he was actually related to a current resident high priest?
There is no mention of Shem in Genesis 14.Scripture is full of places where the Holy Spirit uses types to teach about the office, Person, and work of the Christ who was to come. That is a given.
The word in Hebrews 7:3 means the same as "to morph" aphomoioō 1) to cause a model to pass off into an image or shape like it.So the Holy Spirit morphed Shem, in Genesis 14, on purpose, to type him as the Son of God, for teaching about the Son. He did this in the Torah, in Genesis, not in Jasher,Again I have no problem with allegories like this.
There is a book referred to in the OT as the book of Jasher and about a dozen books that claim the title. Just because a book claims to be the lost book of Jasher doesn't mean that it is, and it doesn't mean that the ancient Jews were familiar with any of the ideas in the book claiming to be Jasher. If you want to convince anybody here, you really need to stick with the books they do accept, the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments.which is history, and for that reason, ancient Jews knew Shem was the priest of the Most High God dwelling at Salem, called the "king of righteousness", and the "King of Peace", which were temporary for the line of the patriarchs who held the offices as Patriarch/King Priest in any tribe of earth, but through Shem, only, the true Firstborn, the Messiah, fills that office with no others coming after Him, as Firstborn of earth. He alone is the everlasting Father [Isaiah 9], who ever lives to make intercession for his own adopted sons.
The office of Firstborn who ever lives to make intercession in the Holies of heaven for His adopted sons is the theme of the second Man, who is the "God of the whole earth", as Second Man but Firstborn son [cause Adam is dead, since the fall, and no Adam person can hold that office or enter into the Holies in heaven].
The office of "Everlasting Firstborn and the Father", who was to come and is now come in flesh, is the theme of Christ, in Scripture
There is no mention of Shem in Genesis 14.
/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P342Malkhi-tzedek
Usually transliterated Melchizedek, literally 'Righteous King' or King of Tzedek.' See Psalms 110:4. He is identified as Shem, the son of Noah (Targum Yonathan; Nedarim 32b; Rashi. However, see 2 Enoch 23:26). Tzedek was a name of Jerusalem, and Malkhi-tzedek was the title given its king, like Pharaoh in Egypt (Radak, Ralbag on Joshua 10:1; cf. Isaiah 1:26). http://bible.ort.org/books
Lord of righteousness in the Book of Jasher is the same king of righteousness, and king of peace. The same is Shem, as many anc ient Jewish sources state. And as the author of Hebrews noted, the Holy Spirit "morphed" Shem into the likeness of the Son of God, as an oracle to teach about His Person, in Genesis 14.Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Nedarim
R. Zechariah said on R. Ishmael's authority: The Holy One, blessed be He, intended to bring forth the priesthood from Shem, as it is written, And he [sc. Melchizedek] was the priest of the most high God.8 But because he gave precedence in his blessing to Abraham over God, He brought it forth from Abraham; as it is written, And he blessed him and said. Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth, and blessed be the most high God.9 Said Abraham to him, 'Is the blessing of a servant to be given precedence over that of his master?' Straightway it [the priesthood] was given to Abraham,
Babylonian Talmud: Nedarim 32
http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/B01C016.htm
11
And Adonizedek king of Jerusalem, the same was Shem, went out with his men to meet Abram and his people, with bread and wine, and they remained together in the valley of Melech.
12
And Adonizedek blessed Abram, and Abram gave him a tenth from all that he had brought from the spoil of his enemies, for Adonizedek was a priest before God.
13
And all the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah who were there, with their servants, approached Abram and begged of him to return them their servants whom he had made captive, and to take unto himself all the property.
14
And Abram answered the kings of Sodom, saying, As the Lord liveth who created heaven and earth, and who redeemed my soul from all affliction, and who delivered me this day from my enemies, and gave them into my hand, I will not take anything belonging to you, that you may not boast tomorrow, saying, Abram became rich from our property that he saved.
15
For the Lord my God in whom I trust said unto me, Thou shalt lack nothing, for I will bless thee in all the works of thy hands.
16
And now therefore behold, here is all belonging to you, take it and go; as the Lord liveth I will not take from you from a living soul down to a shoetie or thread, excepting the expense of the food of those who went out with me to battle, as also the portions of the men who went with me, Anar, Ashcol, and Mamre, they and their men, as well as those also who had remained to watch the baggage, they shall take their portion of the spoil.
17
And the kings of Sodom gave Abram according to all that he had said, and they pressed him to take of whatever he chose, but he would not.
18
And he sent away the kings of Sodom and the remainder of their men, and he gave them orders about Lot, and they went to their respective places.
Still no reference to Shem in Genesis 14/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P342
Lord of righteousness in the Book of Jasher is the same king of righteousness, and king of peace. The same is Shem, as many anc ient Jewish sources state. And as the author of Hebrews noted, the Holy Spirit "morphed" Shem into the likeness of the Son of God, as an oracle to teach about His Person, in Genesis 14.
Unfortunately, you haven't shown the supposed book of Jasher was around at the time Hebrews was written, let alone that it is the book of Jasher mentioned in the OT.Lord of righteousness in the Book of Jasher is the same king of righteousness, and king of peace. The same is Shem, as many anc ient Jewish sources state.
The writer of Hebrews doesn't mention Shem, just Melchizedek. I think you may be reading your interpretation of Melchizedek into the text of Hebrews when the writer doesn't actually say anything about it.And as the author of Hebrews noted, the Holy Spirit "morphed" Shem into the likeness of the Son of God, as an oracle to teach about His Person, in Genesis 14.
That is the point of the "morphing" him into the "Son of God" in that passage, just as the author of Hebrews showed", so as to show the type of priesthood the Son of God has inherited, and will keep forever.Still no reference to Shem in Genesis 14
The passage is a commentary that is not out of line with the office of eternal priesthood -Melche Zedek/King of Righteousness, belonging to the Son of God forever -which is what the Tenach states.the Dead Sea scrolls identify Melchizedek as an angel or elohim who was coming to deliver Israel, (Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13).
Melchizedek: Angel or Shem, son of Noah? - Catholic Answers Forums
Melchizedek's Jubilee
(And con)cerning his saying (Lev 25:13):
--"In this year of ju(bilee you shall restore a man to his inheritance"):
(Unraveled, this is...?)
(And concerning his saying (Deut 15:2)
--"Every master [ba'al] (shall relea)se his hand concerning his claim (upon his neighbor; he shall not exact it of his neighbor and his brother, because he has declared the) release."
(Unraveled, this is for the en)d of days.
(It is) about the captives which (?...Belial) bound
(?...?) and from the inheritance of Melchizedek
(?...Melchize)dek, who will restore them;
and he will declare freedom [deror]* for them
to release them (and to atone) for their sins
(and...?) this word, in the la(s)t year of jubilee (?...?)
(?...?) the (t)enth (ju)bilee (?...?),
in which to atone for all the sons (of light)
(and the) men of the (l)ot of Mel(chi)zedek
(?...?) over (th)em (?...?) because that is the end [qetz]**
to the acceptable year of Melchize(dek...?)
(?...?) and the holy ones of God to the realm of judgment;
as it is written about him in the Songs of David, who says (Ps 82:1):
--"God [Elohim] (stand)s in the coun(cil of God [El]);
in the midst of the gods [elohim] he judges."
And (David) says about him (Ps 7:7f):
-- "Return to the height (a)bove them.
God [El]*** will judge the peoples."
And as he sa(ys; Ps 82:2):
--"(How long will) you judge falsely
and li(ft up) the face of the wick(ed? Se)lah."
Unraveled [pishru], this is about Belial and his lot of spir(it)s,
who (?...?). And Melchizedek will exact
the ven(ge)ance of the judg(me)nts of G(od);
(?...from the hand of Be)lial and the hand of all the (spirits of his lot).
And in his aid are the gods [eli(m)] (on high).
He (?...al)l the sons of Mi(gh)t and the (?...?) this.
That is the day of (destruction).
(And wh)at is written (for the end of days by Isai)ah the prophet,
who say(s) (Isa 52:7):
--"(How) beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of him who bears good n(ews),
(he who) proclaims peace, who be(ars good news of good),
(he who proclaims salva)tion,
who says to Zion: Your God (is king [melek])****"
This is unraveled:
--"the mountain(s": these are...?) for all (?...?).
--"he who bears good news": h(e is the one an)ointed by the Spir(it);
of him he says:
--"(?...who bears good news of) good, he who proclai(ms salvation)."
That is what is w(ritt)en about him, where he (says):
--"(?...?) to com(fort all who mourn" Isa 61:2).*****
(?...?) he will make them wise in all the times (of wrath)
(?...in) truth (?...?)
(?...she) turns away from Belial and (?...?)
(?...?) by the judgment(s) of God,
as it is written about him (Isa 52:7):
--"(He who says to Zi)on: Your God is king!"
("Zi)on": th(at is...?)
(?...those) who establish the covenant,
those who turned away from walking (in the w)ay of the peoples.
"Your G(o)d": that is (?...from) Belial.
And where he says:
--"You shall direct the trump(et to sound) in the (seventh) mo(nth...?)
--- Dead Sea Scrolls, Melchizedek Fragment (11Qmelch)
[NOTE: This text was originally a good example of messianic exegesis at Qumran. But the poor condition of the ms. fragment delayed its publication and prevented its inclusion in the popular collections of the Dead Sea scrolls. Wording that is decipherable, printed in boldface, though often lacking coherence, offers important points of comparison with messianic passages in the NT. So it is presented here, despite the difficult reading caused by the frequent sizeable lacunae (?...?), which prevent a complete and exact reconstruction. The conjectural portions of the translation (text in parentheses), follow the readings suggested by M. deJonge and A.S. vander Woude (NTS 12, 1965-66). ]
* deror: or "pardon."
** qetz: or "time." Hebrew word has same connotations of English "term."
*** El: ms. varies from Massoretic text, which has here: YHWH ("Lord").
**** lit: "Melek is your God." While this verse is clearly the source of the author's identification of Melchizedek with passages in the Psalms referring to "God," it is unclear whether he read it as a proclamation that God is king or that Melchizedek is divine.
***** Isa 61:2: com(fort all who mourn) is this translator's tentative reconstruction, made likely by the fact that the author has just identified the herald of Isa 52:7 was "anointed by the Spirit," a characteristic not mentioned in that passage but invoked in Isa 61:1.
This sounds like a lot of unnecessary theology. Does this matter at all?That is the point of the "morphing" him into the "Son of God" in that passage, just as the author of Hebrews showed", so as to show the type of priesthood the Son of God has inherited, and will keep forever.
The Hebrew "Melchi Zedek" is not a personal name, but a title, and Shem held the Title when He came out to meet Abraham, and He then blessed Abraham with that blessing passed to Abraham, just as his own father, Noah, had passed it to him centuries earlier [which was the office Adam was created for, to have dominion over earth as the son of God of the human being kind, and which became a temporary office after the fall, passed down to those blessed as "Firstborn" (not esp born first, of Adam's sons), until He should come who would never die].
The passage is a commentary that is not out of line with the office of eternal priesthood -Melche Zedek/King of Righteousness, belonging to the Son of God forever -which is what the Tenach states.
So that office was the office Adam lost, which was passed to Cain, then Seth....Enoch, Methuseleh, Noah, Shem [the last born to Noah who received the title from Noah, of the office of "Firstborn", King of Righteousness], and Shem passed the blessing to Abraham, to Issaac, to Jacob......to the tribe of Levi, to Moses, and finally, it goes to Aaron, who got the office to pass on to his sons, until He should come who would never die, and who will hold the office of High Priest and High King of earth, Firstborn and Everlasting Father, forever.
John the Baptist baptized Christ come in flesh into the Priesthood which Moses baptized Aaron into, as a temporary office, held only until Christ would come in flesh. The Father then anointed Christ come in flesh upon His coming up out of the waters of the "Baptism of Righteousness" with the Holy Spirit, and He is forever a Priest after the order first given to Adam, who lost it at the fall, which order is "King of Righteousness" -"Melchi Zedek".
Literally "typed" by the Holy Spirit in the "words", not in the reality.But if the ordinary human being Shem can be "morphed" into the Son of God,
why bother with Jesus?
This is one step away from either modalism or outright Arianism.
Not at all -to those who only drink milk.This sounds like a lot of unnecessary theology. Does this matter at all?
Not sure why you are keeping on going about 'morphing' I have already agree the writer is using Genesis 14 as an allegorical picture or type of Christ. The problem is you claim the writer is morphing Shem. Hebrews does not say that Melchizedek was Shem neither does Genesis.That is the point of the "morphing" him into the "Son of God" in that passage, just as the author of Hebrews showed", so as to show the type of priesthood the Son of God has inherited, and will keep forever.Still no reference to Shem in Genesis 14
Again something you simply don't get in scripture. It doesn't matter if Melchizedeks a personal name or title. The bible doesn't say his priesthood was an Adamic firstborn inheritance or that the bearer was Shem.The Hebrew "Melchi Zedek" is not a personal name, but a title, and Shem held the Title when He came out to meet Abraham, and He then blessed Abraham with that blessing passed to Abraham, just as his own father, Noah, had passed it to him centuries earlier [which was the office Adam was created for, to have dominion over earth as the son of God of the human being kind, and which became a temporary office after the fall, passed down to those blessed as "Firstborn" (not esp born first, of Adam's sons), until He should come who would never die].
The DSS certainly agree with his priesthood being eternal, they read Psalm 110:4 too, but unless you can show from scripture that Shem was an angel or elohim this does contradict the idea Melchizedec was Shem.The passage is a commentary that is not out of line with the office of eternal priesthood -Melche Zedek/King of Righteousness, belonging to the Son of God forever -which is what the Tenach states.the Dead Sea scrolls identify Melchizedek as an angel or elohim who was coming to deliver Israel, (Dead Sea Scroll 11Q13).
If Adam lost the priesthood, how did he pass it on to Cain? Never mind. There is no basis for this in scripture anyway.So that office was the office Adam lost, which was passed to Cain, then Seth....Enoch, Methuseleh, Noah, Shem [the last born to Noah who received the title from Noah, of the office of "Firstborn", King of Righteousness], and Shem passed the blessing to Abraham, to Issaac, to Jacob......to the tribe of Levi, to Moses, and finally, it goes to Aaron, who got the office to pass on to his sons, until He should come who would never die, and who will hold the office of High Priest and High King of earth, Firstborn and Everlasting Father, forever.
John the Baptist baptized Christ come in flesh into the Priesthood which Moses baptized Aaron into, as a temporary office, held only until Christ would come in flesh. The Father then anointed Christ come in flesh upon His coming up out of the waters of the "Baptism of Righteousness" with the Holy Spirit, and He is forever a Priest after the order first given to Adam, who lost it at the fall, which order is "King of Righteousness" -"Melchi Zedek".
"He", as in "Melchi-Zedek" is an office title, which translates to "King of righteousness", and in Jasher "Lord of peace", and also "King/Prince of Peace".The DSS certainly agree with his priesthood being eternal, they read Psalm 110:4 too, but unless you can show from scripture that Shem was an angel or elohim this does contradict the idea Melchizedec was Shem.
If Adam lost the priesthood, how did he pass it on to Cain? Never mind. There is no basis for this in scripture anyway.
Unfortunately you are still not giving the slightest hint of scriptural backing for all these claims. And without that, it is simply not possible to tell this apart from the Jewish myths Paul warned Titus about (Titus 1:14)"He", as in "Melchi-Zedek" is an office title, which translates to "King of righteousness", and in Jasher "Lord of peace", and also "King/Prince of Peace".
Adam had the dominion when he was placed in Eden, God's Garden, where the Tree of Life is, and made the son of God of the human being kind to have the dominion over earth and the realm of earth's heaven, where "Mount Eden", which is the same Mount Zion of the heavenly realm where the "God of the whole earth" will be on His throne and ruling from, when He takes His great power to Himself and casts down and out all that defiles His ransomed kingdom.
When Adam was cast down and out, the promise was given of the Redeemer/Kinsman, who would restore the kingdom by His death. From that point, the office was held temporarily, because of mortality, by the "firstborn sons" through the line of Cain first, who lost it, and Seth was born and took it.
Following the line of anointed [Messiah] "firstborn" sons who held it temporally, until the promised Redeemer/Kinsman would come who would perform the promised ransom, and rise from the dead and then never die, and who would be the "Everlasting Father", and the "God of the whole earth" of the human being kind [ which is the office of "son of God which Adam lost, as the one prince who died -as Psalm 82 in the Hebrew is plain about], we go through Seth's line to Enoch, who held that office and title over all the earth, and to Methusaleh, then Noah, who gave it to Shem, who gave it to Abraham.....through the seed of Abraham born of Isaac, the blessing of "Firstborn of earth" continues being an office held only temporarily, until it settles on the tribe of Levi, and is then split to Judah holding office as King and Levi as Priest, with Aaron as High Priest, and then, down to Messiah born who would never lost the office, and who ever lives to make intercession for us, and who gets the throne of Glory which Adam -nor any Adam seed- ever got to be set upon, because of the fall.
This is the theme of the office of "King of Righteousness", and no Adam "ish" could ever fulfill the office of "Firstborn", but Aaron and his sons were elected to rehearse the fulfillment of that office by Him who was promised to come, from the beginning, and is come, and who holds that office and the Title of "King of Righteousness", " Adoni and King of Peace", as the "God of the whole earth", "EL-ELOHE-ISRAEL/God the Mighty God, Israel", and the "Everlasting Father", who has promised to never leave us as orphans or forsake us, and who ever lives to make intercession for us before the throne above.
That is what Adam lost as the "firstborn" son of God of the human being kind, when he fell, and that is what the second and only living"Firstborn Son", who is YHWH in the Person of the Word, come in flesh of second creation as brother/Kinsman/Redeemer to Adam has now taken the office of and will perform the complete regeneration of the kingdom prepared for the Adam son of God and ransomed by the Kinsman/Redeemer, to bring back, for the Glory, the lost kingdom and seed.
Melchi-Zedek is the office of "Firstborn" son of earth. Adam lost it and his seed held the office in temporarily, down through the ages, in the line the Word shows us, until John [a Levitical priest] baptized the King of Righteousness into the office, transferring it back, which was transferred to Aaron from Moses, at Aaron's baptism. And The Holy Spirit gave the Anointing to the office when Jesus came up out of the waters.
What was flooded was Adamah or the land of Adam. For us on the outside looking in, it would be considered a local flood. The Hebrew word that is translated "world" is "Adamah", not the entire planet.Hi,
I know the Flood isn't strictly to do with origins, but it seems quite connected to it
So my question is, the Noah's Flood was worldwide how did plants survive?
The Hebrew word translated "world" is "tebel", which means "globe", and is translated "globe" in other works.What was flooded was Adamah or the land of Adam. For us on the outside looking in, it would be considered a local flood. The Hebrew word that is translated "world" is "Adamah", not the entire planet.
The Jewish fables to beware of are those found in Jubilees, where the "Law" is the "be all and end all", which book of Jubilees was written by Judaisers with blinders on, who believed, like Saul of Tarsus, that the Law was the end goal itself, for all time and eternity. Their book was written using bits of real history interwoven with contradicting doctrines to the Torah and the Gospel. Jubilees was really big, supplanting Torah, almost, when Jesus the Christ came incarnate. Even Peter was indoctrinated with it, and the LORD weaned him away over time, not all at once, and the vision of the unclean foods to "kill and eat" given to Peter was a powerful show and tell that what Jubilees taught about separation from the Gentiles was not from God.Unfortunately you are still not giving the slightest hint of scriptural backing for all these claims. And without that, it is simply not possible to tell this apart from the Jewish myths Paul warned Titus about (Titus 1:14)
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