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Incidentally, Thaumaturgy, q.v. POST 126 where I told Chordatest Legacy that I actually can show ex-nihilo creation (of anything) mathematically.
(But it's on such a technicality, that it's just easier to say it can't be done.)
No kidding! What do you think my APPLE CHALLENGE is all about?
I cannot prove ex nihilo Creation of even a simple apple, and neither can anyone else.
Yet it happened.
I did not ask you to DISPROVE it --- I asked you what evidence you would use to show it happened.
Faith dictates I respond accordingly:
- Adam.
- Moses.
- Not true.
- To clarify --- not cloud --- the Creation account.
- Ultimately the Holy Spirit.
- Ultimately the Holy Spirit.
- No --- no --- but it doesn't matter if Genghis Khan translated it; the Holy Ghost superintended the work.
No --- that's what my APPLE CHALLENGE is all about.
[/list]Do you have any actual evidence for those answers?
No kidding! What do you think my APPLE CHALLENGE is all about?
Faith dictates I respond accordingly:
No, please I beg you back that up.
Please.
Honestly this is extremely important.
Wait a second... How could Adam have not only written about his death (Gen 5:5) but the several hundred years of history after his death? This makes no sense at all...
Your apple challenge is all about supporting an Omphalos type argument for the creation of the universe.
What are you, an automaton?
No, it's not; Omphalos is embedded history --- not embedded age.
This would mean that an apple, created from nothing, would look very different from an apple that developed naturally on a tree. Therefore, if the Universe was created ex nihilo then it should not have any evidence of a development which never occurred. However, the Universe is filled with a rich history of development which spans the last 13 billion years.
The only reason one would suggest the "embedded age" stuff is if one wishes to studiously avoid the more reasonable direct model of "if it looks old, it is old".
And neither AV nor Inan have suggested any real reason why Genesis can't be allegorical despite Inan's indication that the "wording" of Genesis somehow doesn't allow it to be an allegory.
How many times have you seen me post: "It looks old, because it is old?"
Yup --- you want us to be just like the Serpent, don't you?
"Thou shalt not die, Eve. Don't you know, He was only speaking allegorically?"
How many times have you seen me post: "It looks old, because it is old?"
Yup --- you want us to be just like the Serpent, don't you?
"Thou shalt not die, Eve. Don't you know, He was only speaking allegorically?"
And how many times have we told you your definition of "old" is meaningless tripe?
Considering that Eve didn't die, I'd say the allegorical explanation works a whole lot better than the uberliteral one.
My definition of "old" is "mature." If that's meaningless tripe to you, try experiencing it.
Either that, or she did die spiritually.
(But that thought wouldn't cross a scientist's mind, would it? Since they interpret their "documentation" "uberliterally" as well?)
You want to interpret your data literally --- then pout when we do the same thing.
Gosh, what could I have been thinking? Could it have been that I was stupidly thinking that this was an allegory for the loss of innocence exploited by just about every literary tradition of every society known to humanity?
Spiritual death? What a wonderful allegory!
Woah there, cowboy!!Fair enough --- I actually showed Fish[what's his name] this some time ago:
As I said before, it would require a technicality in the form of omniscience --- but here's how it's done:
- Take the amount of mass/energy in the universe before I created the apple, and compare it to the amount of mass/energy in the universe after I created the apple.
- If the difference is the same (or nearly the same) as the amount of mass/energy in the apple, your friend would have no choice but to conclude that the apple came into existence ex nihilo.
And he didn't even do a good job of this, either.No I suspect the serpent could use a dictionary or could reasonably be expected to defend his own stances. Even before God took away his legs.
How could you be sure that your magic apple was responcible, it could've been a proper god making one on the other side of the universe....
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