The First Resurrection

CoreyD · Jul 21, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
Yes, absolutely, 100%. That's what resurrection means. In the Apostles' Creed Jesus' Church confesses "We believe ... in the resurrection of the body", literally carnis resurrectionem.

Christianity is meaningless and makes no sense without the resurrection of the body.

On the Last Day, when the Lord Jesus returns in glory to judge the living and the dead, yes.

If you plant an acorn in the ground, the acorn is sown, it "dies", and then it rises out of the earth as an oak tree. If you plant an apple seed, the seed "dies", and rises out of the ground to become an apple tree. Etc. The present body is sown, analogous to a seed planted in the ground, it is dead, but then at the resurrection God raises it up. He gives to it a new kind of bodily existence. The glory of the mighty oak tree makes the humble acorn pale in comparison. In the same way, the glory of the body in the resurrection makes our present mortal, corruptible, dishonorable sort of bodily existence now tiny. The analogy of the seed is great because most people are able to recognize two things:

1) There is an obvious connection between the seed that is sown and the plant that rises, what rises isn't something disconnected or discontinuous with the seed; one doesn't get oak trees from mustard seeds, nor does one plant a seed and the thing that grows spontaneously generated from nothing. There is a direct continuation of bodily existence between what is sown and what rises; what is sown is what rises.

2) The matter of glory, what germinates, sprouts, and rises is so much more than what was sown. From a humble acorn one gets a mighty oak, from the tiny meager mustard seed a mighty mustard shrub grows. The meager, tiny, and insignificant gives way to something mighty and glorious. This present meager, mortal, lowly, weak, decaying body of sin-soaked flesh held in bondage to its own lusts because of Adam's sin will, having died, and then raised up at Christ's glorious coming, be raised up in the same glory as Christ was raised. I partake, now, in the fallen, weak, and lowly broken and sinful humanity of Adam; but in the resurrection I shall partake of the glorious humanity of Christ. My flesh is now as Adam's flesh was, but my flesh then will be as Christ's flesh is now. I shall be human like Jesus is human.

To take that last bit further, the entirety of our current spiritual life as Christians, our life of faith, the life we have by grace, through the life of the Spirit who is in us sanctifying us, as we inhabit our baptism and live as justified people--having been freely justified by grace, receiving the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us--accredited to us--by grace. For we have been united to Christ, we are in Christ, by this union to Christ, by the life of the Spirit, we are participating even now--though only in part--of that future good which we long for and hope. So that even though we contend with the old man, the old Adam, with the lusts, passions, and the depravity of our sinful nature we are simultaneously alive in Christ, as a new creation, the new man--the new Adam--which is in Christ. So that united to, and in Christ, we are perfectly righteous before the Father by the declaration of righteousness to us; and by faith we live, walking in and living in and by the Holy Spirit who aids us, who calls us, to keeps us, preserves us, and holds us firm in Christ and the work of God continues. So that we are, in this present moment, a people continuously called to mortify our flesh (that is, to deny the old man and live humbly by repentance) and to continuously hold firm to Christ in faith trusting in the full promises of God that we are His. For God having declared these good things over us graciously holds us and keeps us. We therefore look back to what Christ has done, and find ourselves there in His suffering, death, and resurrection and there we are justified; we find ourselves also looking forward to when all these good things shall reach their completion on the Day of the Lord Jesus, when He comes again as Judge and even these mortal bodies are raised up to immortality and life everlasting--and right now, in this very moment we inhabit at this exact second we live and walk by faith, according to God's grace, trusting in what has been done, hoping for what is to come, and therefore confessing that we justified, forgiven, and being made holy.

The Christian life is one that corresponds to the past, present, and future all at once. The work of Christ is done and finished, and in His finished work I am justified; God now in my present gives me freely the benefits of this work through Word and Sacrament, so that by faith I cling to Christ and what He has done; and when Christ comes again in glory as Judge, I shall be vindicated and have that life which shall never die in the unceasing future ages of ages.

iustificatus sum
I am justified

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for sharing what you believe.
I have not seen any scripture stating that deteriorated bodies are raise up.
However, I do understand that persons accept the doctrines of their church, and these hold authority in their life.

Decisions regarding the translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” in the Apostles’ Creed, December 14, 1983

www.vatican.va

Translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” in the Apostles’ Creed *

Decisions regarding the translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” in the Apostles’ Creed, December 14, 1983

1. The phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” (“resurrection of the flesh”) in the Apostles’ Creed has been translated differently up to now in various languages.

– translating according to the literal meaning of the Latin text of the Apostles’ Creed; [1]
– translating the term “carnis” (“flesh”) with an equivalent term; [2]
– translating the term “mortuorum” (“dead”) in the article “Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum” (“and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead”) in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. [3]

2. The question of the translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” (“Resurrection of the flesh”) in the Apostles’ Creed has been examined by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has adopted the following decisions in its ordinary meeting, accompanied by the corresponding theological reasons.

These decisions, after being approved by the Holy Father in an Audience granted on December 2, 1983, to his Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the same Congregation, have been transmitted by this Dicastery in a letter on December 14, 1983 (Prot. 121/75).

------------------

I am more interested in the holy scriptures than church doctrine. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
If every denomination was under this decision of Catholicism, then a scriptural discussion would be void.
Thankfully, that is not the case.
Thank you.

ViaCrucis · Jul 21, 2024

CoreyD said:
Thank you for sharing what you believe.
I have not seen any scripture stating that deteriorated bodies are raise up.
However, I do understand that persons accept the doctrines of their church, and these hold authority in their life.

"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Those who live in the dust will wake up and shout for joy!
For your dew is like the dew of dawn,
and the earth will give birth to the dead." - Isaiah 26:19

"Many of those who are asleep in the dust of the earth will awaken--some to everlasting life, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

"For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the Last He will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!" - Job 19:25-27

In this case "my church" is simply the Church. There's nothing special, unique, or distinctive in what I believe here. This is like attributing to "my church" a belief that there is only one God, or that the Bible is divinely inspired.

This is what the Scriptures say, this is what the Apostles believed and taught, this is what all Christians since the day said to Peter and Andrew "I will make you fishers of men" until right now have believed.

It would be far more honest if you just said that what you believe is something you've made up by yourself.

CoreyD said:
Decisions regarding the translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” in the Apostles’ Creed, December 14, 1983

Decisions regarding the translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” in the Apostles’ Creed, December 14, 1983

www.vatican.va

Translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” in the Apostles’ Creed *
Decisions regarding the translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” in the Apostles’ Creed, December 14, 1983

1. The phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” (“resurrection of the flesh”) in the Apostles’ Creed has been translated differently up to now in various languages.

2. The question of the translation of the phrase “Carnis resurrectionem” (“Resurrection of the flesh”) in the Apostles’ Creed has been examined by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has adopted the following decisions in its ordinary meeting, accompanied by the corresponding theological reasons.

These decisions, after being approved by the Holy Father in an Audience granted on December 2, 1983, to his Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the same Congregation, have been transmitted by this Dicastery in a letter on December 14, 1983 (Prot. 121/75).

------------------

I am more interested in the holy scriptures than church doctrine. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
If every denomination was under this decision of Catholicism, then a scriptural discussion would be void.
Thankfully, that is not the case.
Thank you.

I don't know what the Vatican has to do with the Apostles' Creed, or why you brought up Catholicism at all. It is entirely irrelevant.

The words of the Apostles' Creed viz-a-viz the resurrection of the body predate the Vatican by centuries. The Apostles' Creed is a form of the ancient confession of faith held since the earliest days of the Church, one particularly early witness is what is called the Old Roman Symbol, which wasn't unique, but simply one of many early and rudimentary Christian statements of faith. Which uses σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν (sarkos anastasin) "resurrection of the flesh". We can date these early creedal formulas very far back. For example the creedal formulas of Irenaeus and Hippolytus,

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” to Him," - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10.1

"When the presbyter takes hold of each of them who are to receive baptism, he shall tell each of them to renounce, saying, 'I renounce you Satan, and all your service and all your works!' After he has said this, he shall anoint each with the oil for exorcism, saying, 'Let every evil spirit depart from you!' ... When each of them to be baptized has gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on each of them, asking, 'Do you believe in God the Father Almighty?' And the one being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.' ... Then he shall ask, 'Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, and the holy Church, and the resurrection of the flesh?' Then each being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.'" - St. Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition, Ch. 21

Now, of course, you don't have to care about any of this. Nobody is going to hold a gun to your head and make you believe in the Christian religion. But this is what Christianity teaches, has always taught, it's right there in the Old Testament, it's right there in the New Testament, it's what Jesus taught, it's what the Apostles taught, it's what all Christian teachers taught, and all Christian believers believed. There is no alternative belief that can be called Christian. There are plenty of alternative beliefs, but they are all non-Christian beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

CoreyD said:
So a man had 100 sheep. Lost one. Left the 99 on the mountain to search for the 1, until he found it.

My point isn't the figurative example. I wrote this many times, specifically that I said that Jesus spoke of sheep, thus sheep are real. I didn't say the figurative sheep that represents a lost person was a person that had been turned into a sheep or whatever humorous logic is being employed to ignore the simple facts which were spelled out clearly.

It is odd that the post wasn't directly responded to. In my opinion, the only reason it wasn't directly responded to was to avoid its actual implications.

This is merely my opinion.

CoreyD said:
A man planted a vineyard. Lent it out to cultivators. Went away. Sent slaves to collect some produce. They got beat up. Sent his son, whom they killed...
A man had two sons. One asked for his inheritance. Left home. Spent every cent. Squandered food from swine. Returned home...

Okay @Grip Docility. See you some other time.

In my opinion, this is completely ignoring everything that I posted.

Instead of kindly acknowledging what I was actually saying, the verbiage is shifted, again, to ignore my actual opinionated point. I spelled out my point, and this answer is purposefully avoiding the intended point.

It's obvious through reading thread history that this reply is without understanding of what is being replied to. Perhaps it was unclear, not read or misunderstood. but this reply is absent of understanding, in reference to my point.

This is my opinon.

Grip Docility said:
I am saying that your position is that Jesus used "Fake" examples. You do not believe in Biblical Sheol (The realm of the dead) where sentient souls dwell who die in unbelief. The modern Greek term for this place is Hades. Sheol is the current "Realm of sentient souls of those that have departed this Corporeal realm of the living" or (Realm of the Dead) who die in unbelief. It is metaphorically translated as Grave, because from our perspective, which by God's design, we are unable to see this realm and only know of the Graves of those who dwell there.

Hell roots in Hinnom or Gehenna and is reference to the Lake of Fire in the end. Hell is not Sheol and Sheol is not Hell.

You believe that Sheol/Hades and the Bosom of Abraham is/are Fake, conjured only for the purpose of that parable as an idea, despite it reconciling with OT scripture and Jewish belief of the time. I will further explain what I am saying here, but essentially you are arguing that because the exact bird in one of Jesus' parables is simply a figurative bird spoken of for the parable, that birds in general are fake.

In my opinion

This is misunderstanding the questions asked because the answer on my part looks like this.

Are Seeds Real? Yes
Are Fish Real? Yes
Are Nets Real? Yes
Are Weddings Real? Yes
Are Wedding Guests Real? Yes
Are Wedding Garments Real? Yes
Are Tares Real? Yes
Are Land Owner's Real? Yes
Are Pharisees Real? Yes
Is Oil Real? Yes
Is Land Real? Yes
Is Wine Real? Yes
Are Samaritans Real? Yes
Is Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham Real? Yes

Whereas your answer goes like so:

Are Seeds Real? Yes
Are Fish Real? Yes
Are Nets Real? Yes
Are Weddings Real? Yes
Are Wedding Guests Real? Yes
Are Wedding Garments Real? Yes
Are Tares Real? Yes
Are Land Owner's Real? Yes
Are Pharisees Real? Yes
Is Oil Real? Yes
Is Land Real? Yes
Is Wine Real? Yes
Are Samaritans Real? Yes
Is Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham Real? NO

I was making it clear that this is an inconsistency with the natural flow of Jesus' teachings to say that He isn't drawing from Real things to teach.

I kindly disagree, because this verbiage is actually accidently sidestepping my intended point that Jesus used real things to teach from. I.e. If Jesus speaks of a figurative bird, we can then surmise that Birds are a real thing.

This concept is ignoring the verse that says that by Having the Holy Spirit of Christ and being under the headship of Jesus Christ that we do have the very "Mind of Christ", per scripture.

My counter point to this fair rhetoric is to say, I BELIEVE that Jesus uses Truth in Example, which believes that His Mind is being shared in Red letters. You could even call me a simpleton in this way.

You are taking the approach that the concept known as "Christian Moralism", which didn't exist as a teaching until 1590's, which contradicts the simplicity of believing that Jesus' drew from True examples for his parables, overrides the validity of the very Concept that Jesus drew from and spoke of in His teaching.

In my opinion.

I believe Jesus spoke Truth and drew from truth. When He says that the poor man was carried by angels to Abraham's Bosom (Arms) and the Rich man was in Sheol/Hades, both sentient after death from this corporeal plane, I believe Jesus is drawing from Truth and speaking Truth, as the Living Truth.

It's in Red Letters, Spoken by the Logos/Word become FLESH. I have demonstrated the incongruity of suggesting that Jesus drew from things that are fake. Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham are as real as Seeds, Birds, People, Slaves, Leaven... etc... etc.... IMO

I actually believe the Red Letters should be pretty concrete in this discussion.

No. The things Jesus used to bind figurative examples to, did exist. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Maybe a bird in a parable is a figurative bird, but God Created birds and birds are real. Seeds are real. Sheol is real. The Bosom of Abraham is real.

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Rich men are real
Manager's are real
Possessions are real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Sons are real
Being younger is real
Father's are real
Estates are real
Wealth is Real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Women are real
Coins are real
Light is real
Lamps are real
Brooms are real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Sheep are real
Lost sheep are real
99 is a real number
1 is a real number
Pastures are real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Men are real
Big dinners are real
Inviting Many is real
Dinner is real
Slaves are real
Everything being ready is real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Guests are real
Places of honor are real
Tables are real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

The Kingdom of God is Real
Mustard Seeds are real
Men are real
Gardens are real
Trees are real
Birds are Real
Nests are real
Branches are real
The sky is real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

Leaven is real
Sata (Portion) is Real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

Praying is real
Cities are real
Judges are real
God is real
People are real

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

Masters exist
Slaves exist
Minas exist

Masters, Vineyards, Managers are Real

Guys are real
Debt is real
Choking is real
Life is real
Slaves are real
Owing little is Real
Kings are real
The King of kings is real
Accounts are real

And, I can point out that Jesus uses real things to anchor His parables to, all of them. It isn't my stance that says; Real, Real, Real, Real, Real, Real

And then... Jumps to Fake at a point that disagrees with an adopted doctrine that didn't come to being until 1590

I don't have to argue that the figurative examples were real events.
I'm taking the counter point of perspective that the things Jesus painted His illustrations with were real.

I will make a silly analogy to explain.

Bob Ross paints a Happy Tree. I'm not arguing that Bob Ross painted an actual Tree that has ever existed. I'm stating that Trees exist and Bob Ross painted something that exists in reality.

I already have. I brought the discussion back to my intended point, instead of an accidently shifted misunderstanding of my intended point. IMO

If I won't adopt the perspective that Jesus didn't use True existing things as examples to draw His illustrations from, we can't discuss the Bible?

Is this not saying that if I continue to point out the validity of the fact that Jesus never lied and used things that exist as examples to draw His illustrations from, because it doesn't line up with the teachings of the Opening Post, that you do not desire to continue discussion with me?

This is my opinon.

Again, this is reframing my entire point to be more supportive of the Opening Post point, though it is not my point.

I am asserting that Jesus uses Birds in parables and birds are real.

Your counter point is to say that I am saying that the exact bird that Jesus is speaking of is real. I'm not making that point. It's not my point.

In my opinon

OP continued on next post, due to length of response.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you @CoreyD, who is my brother In Jesus Christ

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

trophy33 said:
Would you say its meaningless for Christians to be saved and in heaven, in joy? If they were not resurrected physically (yet)?

@ViaCrucis was boiling down a quote from the Apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Those who live in the dust will wake up and shout for joy!
For your dew is like the dew of dawn,
and the earth will give birth to the dead." - Isaiah 26:19

"Many of those who are asleep in the dust of the earth will awaken--some to everlasting life, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

"For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the Last He will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!" - Job 19:25-27

In this case "my church" is simply the Church. There's nothing special, unique, or distinctive in what I believe here. This is like attributing to "my church" a belief that there is only one God, or that the Bible is divinely inspired.

This is what the Scriptures say, this is what the Apostles believed and taught, this is what all Christians since the day said to Peter and Andrew "I will make you fishers of men" until right now have believed.

It would be far more honest if you just said that what you believe is something you've made up by yourself.

I don't know what the Vatican has to do with the Apostles' Creed, or why you brought up Catholicism at all. It is entirely irrelevant.

The words of the Apostles' Creed viz-a-viz the resurrection of the body predate the Vatican by centuries. The Apostles' Creed is a form of the ancient confession of faith held since the earliest days of the Church, one particularly early witness is what is called the Old Roman Symbol, which wasn't unique, but simply one of many early and rudimentary Christian statements of faith. Which uses σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν (sarkos anastasin) "resurrection of the flesh". We can date these early creedal formulas very far back. For example the creedal formulas of Irenaeus and Hippolytus,

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” to Him," - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10.1

"When the presbyter takes hold of each of them who are to receive baptism, he shall tell each of them to renounce, saying, 'I renounce you Satan, and all your service and all your works!' After he has said this, he shall anoint each with the oil for exorcism, saying, 'Let every evil spirit depart from you!' ... When each of them to be baptized has gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on each of them, asking, 'Do you believe in God the Father Almighty?' And the one being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.' ... Then he shall ask, 'Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, and the holy Church, and the resurrection of the flesh?' Then each being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.'" - St. Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition, Ch. 21

Now, of course, you don't have to care about any of this. Nobody is going to hold a gun to your head and make you believe in the Christian religion. But this is what Christianity teaches, has always taught, it's right there in the Old Testament, it's right there in the New Testament, it's what Jesus taught, it's what the Apostles taught, it's what all Christian teachers taught, and all Christian believers believed. There is no alternative belief that can be called Christian. There are plenty of alternative beliefs, but they are all non-Christian beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

@CoreyD,

I don't use extra biblical writings when I exegete and such forth, but Irenaeus shared his beliefs which coincide with what ViaCrucis has been saying. Irenaeus is a very heavy source to cite because of who Discipled him.

Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was said to have been tutored by John the Apostle. (John had used Logos terminology in the Gospel of John and the letter of 1 John). Irenaeus often spoke of the Son and the Spirit as the "hands of God," though he also spoke of the Son as the "Logos."

Irenaeus was discipled by the man that was discipled by John the Apostle. To get a major teaching such as "the state of the dead" incorrect, 3 people from Jesus is a pretty bold claim.

Jesus taught John, John taught Polycarp and Polycarp taught Irenaeus.

Upon Polycarp's being Murdered for not recanting Jesus Christ, he prayed this prayer;

"14. Polycarp Prays;
So they simply bound him with his hands behind him like a distinguished ram chosen from a great flock for sacrifice. Ready to be an acceptable burnt-offering to God, he looked up to heaven, and said, “O Lord God Almighty, the Father of your beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the knowledge of you, the God of angels, powers and every creature, and of all the righteous who live before you, I give you thanks that you count me worthy to be numbered among your martyrs, sharing the cup of Christ and the resurrection to eternal life, both of soul and body, through the immortality of the Holy Spirit. May I be received this day as an acceptable sacrifice, as you, the true God, have predestined, revealed to me, and now fulfilled. I praise you for all these things, I bless you and glorify you, along with the everlasting Jesus Christ, your beloved Son. To you, with him, through the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and forever. Amen.”

Polycarp died in 155 AD, a man discipled directly by John the Revelator and Apostle. Upon this disciple of John's (John who was discipled by Jesus Christ), death He said; "May I be received this day".

That's two discipleships away from Jesus Christ. He knew he was going home to heaven, that very day. He believed it so devoutly that he gave up his life, rather than recant Jesus Christ.

If that doesn't impress you as early church evidence, so be it.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Brother in Him.

Polycarp (69AD-155AD)

- Grip

ViaCrucis · Jul 21, 2024

trophy33 said:
Would you say its meaningless for Christians to be saved and in heaven, in joy? If they were not resurrected physically (yet)?

No, but if there is no resurrection at all then what was the point of the Incarnation, and what does salvation even mean? Christianity isn't about dying and going to "the good place". Paganism has that going for it, the Greeks had the Elysian Fields, the Norse had Valhalla, etc. If this present life is just about getting a good afterlife, then Christianity isn't any different than Paganism.

-CryptoLutheran

CoreyD · Jul 21, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
"But your dead will live; their bodies will rise.
Those who live in the dust will wake up and shout for joy!
For your dew is like the dew of dawn,
and the earth will give birth to the dead." - Isaiah 26:19

"Many of those who are asleep in the dust of the earth will awaken--some to everlasting life, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

"For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the Last He will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!" - Job 19:25-27

It looks like you found a scripture you hoped supports your view.
However, I think you should read the Chapter of Isaiah 65, or start from verse 12, and pay attention to verse 14-18
Hopefully you understand what is being discussed.

Daniel 12:2 is in agreement with the scriptures I referenced - those who are asleep in the dust of the earth will awaken
As for Job 19:25-27, it's best I not comment on this, lest there be more tension, except to say, you decide on what you get from it.

ViaCrucis said:
In this case "my church" is simply the Church. There's nothing special, unique, or distinctive in what I believe here. This is like attributing to "my church" a belief that there is only one God, or that the Bible is divinely inspired.

This is what the Scriptures say, this is what the Apostles believed and taught, this is what all Christians since the day said to Peter and Andrew "I will make you fishers of men" until right now have believed.

That the dead will live? Yes.
That is what I believe.

ViaCrucis said:
It would be far more honest if you just said that what you believe is something you've made up by yourself.

I did not make up the above. It's in the Bible.
Now you are confusing me. Do you believe that the dead will rise/live, or you don't?

ViaCrucis said:
I don't know what the Vatican has to do with the Apostles' Creed, or why you brought up Catholicism at all. It is entirely irrelevant.

The words of the Apostles' Creed viz-a-viz the resurrection of the body predate the Vatican by centuries. The Apostles' Creed is a form of the ancient confession of faith held since the earliest days of the Church, one particularly early witness is what is called the Old Roman Symbol, which wasn't unique, but simply one of many early and rudimentary Christian statements of faith. Which uses σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν (sarkos anastasin) "resurrection of the flesh". We can date these early creedal formulas very far back. For example the creedal formulas of Irenaeus and Hippolytus,

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” to Him," - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10.1

"When the presbyter takes hold of each of them who are to receive baptism, he shall tell each of them to renounce, saying, 'I renounce you Satan, and all your service and all your works!' After he has said this, he shall anoint each with the oil for exorcism, saying, 'Let every evil spirit depart from you!' ... When each of them to be baptized has gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on each of them, asking, 'Do you believe in God the Father Almighty?' And the one being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.' ... Then he shall ask, 'Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, and the holy Church, and the resurrection of the flesh?' Then each being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.'" - St. Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition, Ch. 21

Now, of course, you don't have to care about any of this. Nobody is going to hold a gun to your head and make you believe in the Christian religion. But this is what Christianity teaches, has always taught, it's right there in the Old Testament, it's right there in the New Testament, it's what Jesus taught, it's what the Apostles taught, it's what all Christian teachers taught, and all Christian believers believed. There is no alternative belief that can be called Christian. There are plenty of alternative beliefs, but they are all non-Christian beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

I have read in the Bible...

Matthew 22:31 Interlinear: 'And concerning the rising again of the dead, did ye not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,

Acts 17:32 Interlinear: And having heard of a rising again of the dead, some, indeed, were mocking, but others said, 'We will hear thee again concerning this;'

Acts 23:6 Interlinear: and Paul having known that the one part are Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, cried out in the sanhedrim, 'Men, brethren, I am a Pharisee -- son of a Pharisee -- concerning hope and rising again of dead men I am judged.'

Acts 24:21 Interlinear: except concerning this one voice, in which I cried, standing among them -- Concerning a rising again of the dead I am judged to-day by you.'

1 Corinthians 15:12 Interlinear: And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?

1 Corinthians 15:21 Interlinear: for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,

1 Corinthians 15:42 Interlinear: So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

Hebrews 6:2 Interlinear: of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,

Perhaps you are using a different translation other than the one I am, and yours reads "resurrection of the flesh".
I understand that it is the soul - the person that dies... that is sleeping, and it is the soul - the person that is resurrected.

We have gone through this for at least 8 posts now, and I don't see another post changing what has been already said.
So, may you have peace. Take care.

ViaCrucis · Jul 21, 2024

CoreyD said:
Perhaps you are using a different translation other than the one I am, and yours reads "resurrection of the flesh".
I understand that it is the soul - the person that dies... that is sleeping, and it is the soul - the person that is resurrected.

Souls don't sleep.
Souls don't rise.

Bodies do that.

If you believe that you are a "soul" encased in a body, and that your soul is the real you that will "rise" and etc that isn't Christianity. That's Paganism.

-CryptoLutheran

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

CoreyD said:
It looks like you found a scripture you hoped supports your view.
However, I think you should read the Chapter of Isaiah 65, or start from verse 12, and pay attention to verse 14-18
Hopefully you understand what is being discussed.

Perhaps you are using a different translation other than the one I am, and yours reads "resurrection of the flesh".
I understand that it is the soul - the person that dies... that is sleeping, and it is the soul - the person that is resurrected.

We have gone through this for at least 8 posts now, and I don't see another post changing what has been already said.
So, may you have peace. Take care.

Christian Mortalism, which was only taught as of 500ish years ago reinterprets passages in scripture to evoke what was coined as "Soul Sleep".

That doctrine broke from the Teachings of John the Apostle who discipled Polycarp. John was taught by Jesus.

Declaring that you have reasserted your opinion, doesn't make other people wrong, in my opinion. Suggesting that you have it right, which means that others don't understand what is being discussed, doesn't make an opinion fact, in my opinion.

We are indeed sharing opinions, but one opinion goes back all the way to John the Revelator, where the other didn't arrive on scene until late 1500 AD. That does matter, in my opinion.

- Grip

trophy33 · Jul 21, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
No, but if there is no resurrection at all then what was the point of the Incarnation, and what does salvation even mean? Christianity isn't about dying and going to "the good place". Paganism has that going for it, the Greeks had the Elysian Fields, the Norse had Valhalla, etc. If this present life is just about getting a good afterlife, then Christianity isn't any different than Paganism.

-CryptoLutheran

I am not sure if I understand this argument. You believe that Valhalla and similar are real?

Salvation would mean to be with God, eternally. To have life and being constantly transformed to His image.

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

trophy33 said:
I am not sure if I understand this argument. You believe that Valhalla and similar are real?

Salvation would mean to be with God, eternally.

ViaCrucis will answer this, of coarse, and, I'm not trying to hone in on their words, but in no possible way did they say that. I read what they wrote. You may want to re-read their statement.

They said the following;

ViaCrucis said:
No, but if there is no resurrection at all then what was the point of the Incarnation, and what does salvation even mean? Christianity isn't about dying and going to "the good place". Paganism has that going for it, the Greeks had the Elysian Fields, the Norse had Valhalla, etc. If this present life is just about getting a good afterlife, then Christianity isn't any different than Paganism.

-CryptoLutheran

Even in our Mortal Coils, in Jesus Christ, the Incarnation, our Joy begins here and now. The end of this life is just the path way or gateway to Dwelling with Jesus, yet that is not the focus of Christianity. It all begins when we turn to Jesus, who is our very Anchor of our Souls and Hope, Joy, Peace etc. etc. We are transformed to Love by His power in life changing ways. Not just our lives, but the lives of others that Jesus Christ Loves others through us. There is so much more to Jesus than just "Heaven". It's a major deal, for sure, but there is so much more.

It was a contrast statement.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Trophy33

trophy33 · Jul 21, 2024

Grip Docility said:
ViaCrucis will answer this, of coarse, and, I'm not trying to hone in on their words, but in no possible way did they say that. I read what they wrote. You may want to re-read their statement.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Trophy33

I re-read and still the argument makes no sense if its not believed that paganism is real. The difference is obviously that Christianity is the real way.

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

trophy33 said:
I re-read and still the argument makes no sense if its not believed that paganism is real. The difference is obviously that Christianity is the real way.

Sorry! I frequently lay the bones down for my replies and then fill them out.

Here's a link to my finished response, with explanation. Link Here <-

CoreyD · Jul 21, 2024

Grip Docility said:
@CoreyD,

I don't use extra biblical writings when I exegete and such forth, but Irenaeus shared his beliefs which coincide with what ViaCrucis has been saying. Irenaeus is a very heavy source to cite because of who Discipled him.

Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was said to have been tutored by John the Apostle. (John had used Logos terminology in the Gospel of John and the letter of 1 John). Irenaeus often spoke of the Son and the Spirit as the "hands of God," though he also spoke of the Son as the "Logos."

Irenaeus was discipled by the man that was discipled by John the Apostle. To get a major teaching such as "the state of the dead" incorrect, 3 people from Jesus is a pretty bold claim.

Jesus taught John, John taught Polycarp and Polycarp taught Irenaeus.

Upon Polycarp's being Murdered for not recanting Jesus Christ, he prayed this prayer;

"14. Polycarp Prays;
So they simply bound him with his hands behind him like a distinguished ram chosen from a great flock for sacrifice. Ready to be an acceptable burnt-offering to God, he looked up to heaven, and said, “O Lord God Almighty, the Father of your beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the knowledge of you, the God of angels, powers and every creature, and of all the righteous who live before you, I give you thanks that you count me worthy to be numbered among your martyrs, sharing the cup of Christ and the resurrection to eternal life, both of soul and body, through the immortality of the Holy Spirit. May I be received this day as an acceptable sacrifice, as you, the true God, have predestined, revealed to me, and now fulfilled. I praise you for all these things, I bless you and glorify you, along with the everlasting Jesus Christ, your beloved Son. To you, with him, through the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and forever. Amen.”

Polycarp died in 155 AD, a man discipled directly by John the Revelator and Apostle. Upon this disciple of John's (John who was discipled by Jesus Christ), death He said; "May I be received this day".

That's two discipleships away from Jesus Christ. He knew he was going home to heaven, that very day. He believed it so devoutly that he gave up his life, rather than recant Jesus Christ.

If that doesn't impress you as early church evidence, so be it.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Brother in Him.

Polycarp (69AD-155AD)

- Grip

I understand your view.
However, John said this:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

Jesus emphasized how successful this deception will be. Matthew 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

So does Paul. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Irenaeus was not beyond the powerful influence that was building up in the late first century.
Do you think he was?

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

CoreyD said:
I understand your view.
However, John said this:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

Jesus emphasized how successful this deception will be. Matthew 24:24

So does Paul. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Irenaeus was not beyond the powerful influence that was building up in the late first century.
Do you think he was?

In my opinion, the guy that Authored that exact quote, discipled a guy who believed that we go to heaven upon death.

This is my opinion and I appreciate your sharing of your view, as well.

CoreyD · Jul 21, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
Souls don't sleep.
Souls don't rise.

Bodies do that.

If you believe that you are a "soul" encased in a body, and that your soul is the real you that will "rise" and etc that isn't Christianity. That's Paganism.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, since I do not believe the soul is encased in a body, but the person does need a body to be a whole living being - body, soul, and spirit 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the pagan teaching you have in mind, does not apply to me.

CoreyD · Jul 21, 2024

Grip Docility said:
In my opinion, the guy that Authored that exact quote, discipled a guy who believed that we go to heaven upon death.

Quite a lot of disciples, including those taught by Jesus, left the truth.
Imagine that.

Grip Docility said:
This is my opinion and I appreciate your sharing of your view, as well.

Take care.

Grip Docility · Jul 21, 2024

CoreyD said:
Quite a lot of disciples, including those taught by Jesus, left the truth.
Imagine that.

Take care.

Philippians 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance. 20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 5:24 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life — that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!

John 5:28,29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life,...

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Messiah have now come, because the accuser of our brothers has been thrown out: the one who accuses them before our God day and night.11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives in the face of death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them!

Matthew 27:50 Jesus shouted again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. 51 Suddenly, the curtain of the sanctuary was split in two from top to bottom; the earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 And they came out of the tombs after His resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God,

Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. He laid His right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last, 18 and the Living One. I was dead, but look—I am alive forever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and Hades.

- Take Care

CoreyD · Jul 21, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Philippians 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance. 20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

John 5:24 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life — that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!

John 5:28,29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life,...

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Messiah have now come, because the accuser of our brothers has been thrown out: the one who accuses them before our God day and night.11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives in the face of death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them!

Matthew 27:50 Jesus shouted again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. 51 Suddenly, the curtain of the sanctuary was split in two from top to bottom; the earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 And they came out of the tombs after His resurrection, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God,

Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. He laid His right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last, 18 and the Living One. I was dead, but look—I am alive forever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and Hades.

- Take Care

1 Timothy 3:16

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

1 Peter 3:18

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

ViaCrucis · Jul 21, 2024

CoreyD said:
I understand your view.
However, John said this:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

Jesus emphasized how successful this deception will be. Matthew 24:24

So does Paul. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Irenaeus was not beyond the powerful influence that was building up in the late first century.
Do you think he was?

Question: If I can't trust what the Christian Church has said, and passed on to me as trustworthy, then how can I be expected to even trust the Bible? The Bible is one of those things which I've received from the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

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