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So? Why? Why couldn't they be anything else?
I'm not in your time zone. It's 1am here. Only reason I'm on now is insomnia. But if you need me to spell out the hypocrisy of telling other people to read links you yourself haven't read, then sure, consider the hypocrisy pointed out.And you ignore my post to you....
I approve of this analogy.Excuse me, if I might interject for just a moment - it seems an analogous example would help OnceDeceived here.
Once, Here is some information I have to share with you about the Sentient Intelligence of the Ohio River. I refer to the article http://knorek.com/RR/Ohio/History/historyOH.htm where it states, and I quote "The Ohio River follows the state's southern border with West Virginia and Kentucky." - Hubert G. H. Wilhelm. This information has been quoted directly from this article that itself was researched and compiled by cartographers and historians in good standing. How does the Ohio River know to follow the State Lines like that?? It HAS to be Intelligent, especially given the improbability that a sentient river could go an infinite number of ways at an equally infinite number of points, this cannot be a coincidence!! The Proof is Plain for All to see!
Here is a Map that Shows how it follows the State Borders with Exact Precision for Hundreds upon Hundreds of Miles!
I know what you're going to say, I can hear it now... "...but the River just flows downhill, so it Has to go that way..." - Well, to all you Naysayers, if that's the way it Had to go, then it must be ESPECIALLY Sentient!! it would have to be Super Intelligent to know it could only go that one way, AND STILL BE ABLE TO FOLLOW THE STATE LINES!!!
How could you not see it for the Intelligent Sentient entity it is?
My view is that a Sentient Intelligent body of Water better explains the Ohio River following the state lines exactly than a purely gravitational-guided naturalistic explanation.
Get ready, get set, and go......
KC, I've provided multiple support for all of my claims while you are at zero. All assertion and no science.Acting offended as an excuse to ignore reasonable questions would be one approach I might take if I really needed to continue believing things despite the doubts those questions raise.
Guess this means you're not having any luck finding actual science which backs up what you've claimed as scientific evidence for your beliefs.
Please provide some documentation that shows scientists feel this example is worth scientific effort to show that it is fine tuned.Excuse me, if I might interject for just a moment - it seems an analogous example would help OnceDeceived here.
Once, Here is some information I have to share with you about the Sentient Intelligence of the Ohio River. I refer to the article http://knorek.com/RR/Ohio/History/historyOH.htm where it states, and I quote "The Ohio River follows the state's southern border with West Virginia and Kentucky." - Hubert G. H. Wilhelm. This information has been quoted directly from this article that itself was researched and compiled by cartographers and historians in good standing. How does the Ohio River know to follow the State Lines like that?? It HAS to be Intelligent, especially given the improbability that a sentient river could go an infinite number of ways at an equally infinite number of points, this cannot be a coincidence!! The Proof is Plain for All to see!
Here is a Map that Shows how it follows the State Borders with Exact Precision for Hundreds upon Hundreds of Miles!
I know what you're going to say, I can hear it now... "...but the River just flows downhill, so it Has to go that way..." - Well, to all you Naysayers, if that's the way it Had to go, then it must be ESPECIALLY Sentient!! it would have to be Super Intelligent to know it could only go that one way, AND STILL BE ABLE TO FOLLOW THE STATE LINES!!!
How could you not see it for the Intelligent Sentient entity it is?
My view is that a Sentient Intelligent body of Water better explains the Ohio River following the state lines exactly than a purely gravitational-guided naturalistic explanation.
Get ready, get set, and go......
This one surprised me. I thought you were above that sort of thing.I approve of this analogy.
Yes, all that illusion. What evidence is there that it is an illusion? See the evidence is that it appears designed, the conclusion of those who don't believe in a Designer is that it is an illusion but alas no evidence supports their conclusion that it is just an illusion.So do your sources - notice all the quotes about the appearance of design.
I agreed that if the universe was formed by randomly selecting the values for the constants, each one from a huge range if possible values, then each combination could be considered unlikely. The problem is that we don't know how universes are formed, we don't know what values the constants can take, we don't know how many of them are interdependent etc.You said you agreed that the universe could not have the values it does by chance but you feel the universe appears as if it is all just a lucky coincidence of chance? Could you explain?
This is exact my point. Your scriptures describe god doing super obvious things and it not affecting people's beliefs, therefore your defense that God would make the universe the kind that could allow life to arise naturally so that people wouldn't be forced to believe is undermined by your own theology.And Jesus performed miracles while on earth, that doesn't mean He doesn't allow people to believe what they wish.
As far as I am aware, if the values can be varied and if they were all set in a random process the multiverse or mega verse are the best models we currently have. They are not demonstrably true, nor are those initial hypotheticals established, so the simple answer is, I don't know.So are you then saying that the multiverse/megaverse are the best explanation for the fine tuning then?
Interesting so what else makes the fine tuning special, aside from its life permitting values?Even if we were not around to consider the implications, the universe would still have to be fine tuned for life other than us. Even if there was no life the fine tuning would still be there. The fact that we are is of course a very important feature but it is not the only feature that makes the fine tuning special.
You are unaware of the way things are formulated in physics.Given equation 3, you've moved from not being able to quantify one probability to not being able to show us three different ones. Progress?
Also, note the weaknesses of this approach outlined here : http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/badbayesmain.pdf. It points out the problems many of us have identified - mainly that it is kinda tough figuring out the odds of something which happened in a place we can't observe using processes we don't understand.
Of course any objections are premature since you haven't shown us that scientists actually use this approach in practice to answer the question we've been asking. First things first - what specific odds do scientists place on the universal constants ending up as they have on our universe?
The one time you post something rather than assert and whoops it was a mock objection to Bayesian Probability. Perhaps you should have made sure what you were posting. Here is the author explaining the paper you provided:Given equation 3, you've moved from not being able to quantify one probability to not being able to show us three different ones. Progress?
Also, note the weaknesses of this approach outlined here : http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/badbayesmain.pdf. It points out the problems many of us have identified - mainly that it is kinda tough figuring out the odds of something which happened in a place we can't observe using processes we don't understand.
Of course any objections are premature since you haven't shown us that scientists actually use this approach in practice to answer the question we've been asking. First things first - what specific odds do scientists place on the universal constants ending up as they have on our universe?
Did you not read what I wrote, nor Clickie the Link I provided??Please provide some documentation that shows scientists feel this example is worth scientific effort to show that it is fine tuned.
Sorry, that is not the whole argument. Perhaps you should understand the whole argument and then post? If fine tuning fell apart there would be no scientific papers discussing it.If you don't know why they could or couldn't, your whole argument seems to fall apart from the start. I'd be careful pointing out that we're ignorant of how universes form.
Did you not read what I wrote, nor Clickie the Link I provided??
I'll provide it again, "The Ohio River follows the state's southern border with West Virginia and Kentucky." - Hubert G. H. Wilhelm. - http://knorek.com/RR/Ohio/History/historyOH.htm
Geography Professor Hubert G. H. Wilhelm, 1931-2015
Wilhelm was a distinguished Professor of Geography at Ohio University, where he taught for 35 years, further information on his career and contributions can be found here at http://www.ohio-forum.com/2015/12/geography-professor-hubert-g-h-wilhelm-1931-2015/
So, he is a Bonafide Professor of Geography, and made the statement in Quotes above, Proving that the Ohio River is a Sentient Intelligence with an innate ability to follow the State Lines for Hundreds of Miles!!
Why aren't you seeing this?
I'm not going to spend time on this mockery. sorry.Did you not read what I wrote, nor Clickie the Link I provided??
I'll provide it again, "The Ohio River follows the state's southern border with West Virginia and Kentucky." - Hubert G. H. Wilhelm. - http://knorek.com/RR/Ohio/History/historyOH.htm
Geography Professor Hubert G. H. Wilhelm, 1931-2015
Wilhelm was a distinguished Professor of Geography at Ohio University, where he taught for 35 years, further information on his career and contributions can be found here at http://www.ohio-forum.com/2015/12/geography-professor-hubert-g-h-wilhelm-1931-2015/
So, he is a Bonafide Professor of Geography, and made the statement in Quotes above, Proving that the Ohio River is a Sentient Intelligence with an innate ability to follow the State Lines for Hundreds of Miles!!
Why aren't you seeing this?
Not Mockery! This is as Much Sense as you're making - I'm glad you see this. Now, I don't understand how you think that everything you've done in this Entire thread is somehow different?I'm not going to spend time on this mockery. sorry.
KC, I've provided multiple support for all of my claims
while you are at zero.
Yes, all that illusion. What evidence is there that it is an illusion?
You are unaware of the way things are formulated in physics.
The one time you post something rather than assert and whoops it was a mock objection to Bayesian Probability.
Come on, at least try and read things before deciding they must be wrong.Although this originated as an April Fool's blog entry (Gelman, 2008), I realized that these are strong arguments to be taken seriously
Sorry, that is not the whole argument. Perhaps you should understand the whole argument and then post? If fine tuning fell apart there would be no scientific papers discussing it.
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