The fine tuning of the universe.

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
I don't assert anything about fine tuning there are plenty of scientific papers that do more than assert fine tuning.

The asserting part is not about the idea that the values are what they are and they the universe is the way it is, because the values happen to be what they are.

The asserting part, rather, is about what you are concluding from it, about what you are adding to it.

You are asserting intent, purpose, etc. You are adding ideas and concepts to it, only because of your a priori religious beliefs. Nothing about those assertions are supportable (or supported).

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
I don't assert anything about fine tuning there are plenty of scientific papers that do more than assert fine tuning.

I also note that you completely ignored the question I asked. I'll ask again:

So, are you saying that only a universe like this one could actually exist?
If that is the case, then why are you surprised that the universe is the way it is, considering that it exists???
If that is not the case, please explain what you then meant by the bolded part.

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
That is true but if I went into it, it would derail this thread. Do you think in all these billions of years it might be a little strange that we haven't bit the dust yet?

What are you talking about?
Asteroids HAVE hit the earth in the past. With devastating results. Whiping out 60-70% of all species. For crying out loud, one of those space rocks is mostly likely responsible for setting dino's on the course of extinction.

Next to that, we also have super volcano eruptions etc.

Considering the history of the planet, there's a case to be made that every other 250 million years or so, everything that weighs more then 25 pounds dies in some catastrophic event.

You are not aware of the major extinction waves in the planet's history?

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
What order comes from hydrogen gas?

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
If you are satisfied with we don't know that is your choice. Luckily, scientists don't do that.

Scientists are not "satisfied" with we don't know.

Which is why they get to work to find out, instead of simply inventing/assuming nonsense, like you are doing.

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

Athée said:
No idea.

Well do you suppose that any form of life could live on the sun? Life of any kind has requirements to exist, they need order for that and to reproduce. Life of any form isn't just forms of imagination but actual requirements that have to be met and just claiming that they could exist is not providing necessary elements that would allow a life permitting universe.

http://www.livescience.com/15222-universe-analysis.html

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

DogmaHunter said:
View attachment 176272

Do you honestly believe that life could exist here?

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

DogmaHunter said:
Scientists are not "satisfied" with we don't know.

Which is why they get to work to find out, instead of simply inventing/assuming nonsense, like you are doing.

I'm inventing nothing. I've not presented anything other than evidence supplied by scientific methodology.

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

KCfromNC said:
Simple question - how many of the links you've posted have you read through completely?

All but one. I said, I didn't read it. I had read other papers from both scientists however.

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

KCfromNC said:
It is strange how you keep asking questions of others after avoiding answering so many asked of you. Having any luck finding that post where you provided a reference to a scientific paper showing the probability the universe is as it is?

What are you talking about?

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

KCfromNC said:
No you didn't. You posted links to random unrelated papers and then changed the subject when challenged to point out how they were in any way related to the question you were attempting to answer.

False accusations as usual.

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

[serious] said:
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. You asked me if pi was a physical thing. I said no. Now you are saying that the other constants are thus unlike pi. Are you saying that there is some physical thing called The Cosmological Constant sitting somewhere?

The point was that pi is very precise and exact, which you seem to be saying the constants are not. Am I incorrect?

Oncedeceived · Jun 15, 2016

freezerman2000 said:
Life has survived quite a few near total extinction events..some of those caused by objects hitting the planet...I don't see that as being fine tuned...
If the Universe and our neighborhood was fine tuned,it would have been smooth sailing,without those collisions.

Well the scientists in the field disagree.

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Do you honestly believe that life could exist here?

You asked "What order comes from hydrogen gas?".
You did not ask "Is life possible on the surface of a star?"

But I understand your need to quickly make it about something else.

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
I'm inventing nothing.

You are inventing probabilities.
You are inventing deities.
You are inventing causal links between said deities and the universe.

Let's play honest here... Your entire rant / argument does NOT limit itself to saying "if things were different, things would be different." Nope, you are going waaaay beyond that.

You are adding to it: "...and there is a reason for why things aren't different, and that reason is purpose and intent by a designer".

Which is very far removed from the statements by scientists concerning this subject matter. Very far removed indeed.

I've not presented anything other than evidence supplied by scientific methodology.

Where is your evidence of purpose, intent, deities?
Where is your evidence of your continued assertions concerning the probability of the universe being the way it is?

[serious] · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
The point was that pi is very precise and exact, which you seem to be saying the constants are not. Am I incorrect?

Yup, you are incorrect.

Also, I have absolutely no idea how you got to that from anything I said. Again, the conversation went as follows:

can pi be anything but 3.14...? It seems that that's just what pi is and it can't be anything different. Could the rest of the natural constants likewise simply be the only value they can be?
Is pi a physical thing?
No, pi is a ratio.
how could the physical constants be like pi?

We can calculate pi to arbitrary specificity, but that's hardly unique. Most metric units are defined in terms of physical constants anyway.

DogmaHunter · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Well do you suppose that any form of life could live on the sun? Life of any kind has requirements to exist, they need order for that and to reproduce.

Newsflash: life isn't build from only hydrogen atoms. So one can only wonder what your point is.

Life of any form isn't just forms of imagination but actual requirements that have to be met and just claiming that they could exist is not providing necessary elements that would allow a life permitting universe.

Ice isn't just forms of imagination but requires actual requirements that have to be met and just claiming that ice could exist is not providing necessary elements that would allow an ice permitting universe.

So therefor, the North Pole is "designed for the purpose of ice forming", because freezers.

...a polar bear might say.

http://www.livescience.com/15222-universe-analysis.html

Can you summarize what point you are trying to make by including this link?

Athée · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Well do you suppose that any form of life could live on the sun? Life of any kind has requirements to exist, they need order for that and to reproduce. Life of any form isn't just forms of imagination but actual requirements that have to be met and just claiming that they could exist is not providing necessary elements that would allow a life permitting universe.

yes it is possible that a form of life could live on a sun. You seem to keep thinking about the requirements of life as we know it in the universe as we know it . The objection bis that this is only one kind of life and it is possible that there are more. Moreover in a different universe with different laws of physics and different constants we have no idea what kinds of life might be possible.

HitchSlap · Jun 15, 2016

KCfromNC said:
No you didn't. You posted links to random unrelated papers and then changed the subject when challenged to point out how they were in any way related to the question you were attempting to answer.

I clicked on one of her links, and it was from 1976(?) and only the abstract was available, and from what I could tell, had nothing to do with fine tuning.

freezerman2000 · Jun 15, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Well the scientists in the field disagree.

Which scientists?Which field?

The fine tuning of the universe.

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