The False Prophet Is The Antichrist.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
And he's still my friend today.
He was CEO of the Bible Society of Australia for a while there.
And I don't care how old the article is - the bible is 2000 years old and we still quote that.

Your friend said in closing the 1999 article...

It’s a bit of a waste of time trying to work out whether the antichrist is Boris Yeltsin, the Dalai Lama, Bill Gates or the Pope. It’s just as likely to be your granny or your next door neighbour, if they are promoting lies about our Lord.

He is totally wrong. For them who truly love God, they are interested in everything God is going to do. And God has shared so much for them who love Him of what He is going to do in extreme woven detail about such matters like the Antichrist.

The article was 24 years ago, so I hope Dr. Greg Clarke has grown in his knowledge on eschatological matter, such as the Antichrist, and the path to his destruction. If he has, he should know by now that the first box to be checked off regarding identifying the person who will become the Antichrist - "Is the suspected person a Jew?"

None of the personalities mentioned in his article are Jews. But he doesn't mention that - instead he is telling others that it is a waste of time trying to figure out who the person is. It is like saying people shouldn't waste their time being interested in what God is telling us.

The message he should be delivering is to learn and study as much as a person can about eschatological matter.

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Douggg said:
Your friend said in closing the 1999 article...

It’s a bit of a waste of time trying to work out whether the antichrist is Boris Yeltsin, the Dalai Lama, Bill Gates or the Pope. It’s just as likely to be your granny or your next door neighbour, if they are promoting lies about our Lord.

He is totally wrong. For them who truly love God, they are interested in everything God is going to do. And God has shared so much for them who love Him of what He is going to do in extreme woven detail about such matters like the Antichrist.

He is totally right. If Revelations was futurist - it would be clearer.
No 2 futurists in here seem to agree on anything.
Conclusion: futurism is a waste of time.

Douggg said:
The article was 24 years ago, so I hope Dr. Greg Clarke has grown in his knowledge on eschatological matter, such as the Antichrist,

He has grown in theology and philosophy and never adopted the futurist view.
Anyone who denies the Lord is an antiChrist.
Indeed - there are probably some in here that (sadly) when their futurist predictions fail will become cynical, leave Christianity, and become antiChrists themselves.

Douggg said:
and the path to his destruction. If he has, he should know by now that the first box to be checked off regarding identifying the person who will become the Antichrist - "Is the suspected person a Jew?"

Nope. Not according to the verses he quotes. It could be anyone that goes out from us and is no longer with us. Nothing ethnic about them.

Douggg said:
None of the personalities mentioned in his article are Jews.

Yeah, well, there is that - given Dr Clarke has based it on the bible.

Douggg said:
It is like saying people shouldn't waste their time being interested in what God is telling us.

He's saying he's an Amil - and that true eschatology helps us understand how the Old Testament fits into the New Testament and the promises of God for us in the Kingdom to come. That's true eschatology - and it motivates the son or daughter of God to dwell on heaven and be excited by paradise and the new world to come, and want to share the gospel.

I come in here - and instead of the gospel - people are arguing over mythical timetables they've constructed themselves from their own subjective reading of the text.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
He is totally right. If Revelations was futurist - it would be clearer.
No 2 futurists in here seem to agree on anything.
Conclusion: futurism is a waste of time.

What he is saying to God is - I don't care about what You said to the prophets. And to Jesus, I don't care what you said in the four gospels regarding the future. It is all a waste of my time.

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Douggg said:
What he is saying to God is - I don't care about what You said to the prophets. And to Jesus, I don't care what you said in the four gospels regarding the future. It is all a waste of my time.

Not at all! He's saying what God told the prophets and what Jesus God's Son, The Word, our Lord - is that "I believe you." You're saying you don't believe Jesus when he says no-one knows the date of THAT DAY (Matthew 24) or Paul when he says "About times we do not need to write to you... because... thief in the night."

Therefore, everything else to the prophets is about something else - and quite often the gospel itself.
Which Dr Clarke explains in his book.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
Not at all! He's saying what God told the prophets and what Jesus God's Son, The Word, our Lord - is that "I believe you." You're saying you don't believe Jesus when he says no-one knows the date of THAT DAY (Matthew 24) or Paul when he says "About times we do not need to write to you... because... thief in the night."

And when have you ever heard me say what the day or hour is that the rapture takes place ? Jesus said only the Father knows.

eclipsenow said:
Therefore, everything else to the prophets is about something else - and quite often the gospel itself.
Which Dr Clarke explains in his book.

Even the title of his book is cynical. "666 and all that, the truth about the future"

Find a copy of his end times timeline of prophesied events, and copy and paste it so we can see it.

Have you ever heard him say that the person who becomes the Antichrist must be a Jew ?

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Douggg said:
And when have you ever heard me say what the day or hour is that the rapture takes place ? Jesus said only the Father knows.

The rapture = the return = judgement day = new heavens new earth = thief in night = unpredictable.

Douggg said:
Even the title of his book is cynical. "666 and all that, the truth about the future"

Not cynical at all - Amil.
He fully believes the Lord will return.
Amil's are a legitimate Reformed Protestant Christian branch of theology, less likely to be dragged down into some cult-like mentalities like Jonestown or Waco. You want cynical? Meet people that have survived stuff like that or had relatives die in them!

Douggg said:
Find a copy of his end times timeline of prophesied events, and copy and paste it so we can see it.

You're really not getting this are you?
There is no end-times timeline. He, and I, and many many Reformed Protestants that believe the bible to be the inspired, God-breathed word of God say there IS NO end times table! The Lord could return in judgement tonight, or in 50,000 years. We just don't know!

Douggg said:
Have you ever heard him say that the person who becomes the Antichrist must be a Jew ?

There is no 'the antichrist'. There are antichrists.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
Not cynical at all - Amil.

When he adds in "and all that", he is being cynical.

eclipsenow said:
There is no 'the antichrist'. There are antichrists.

Do you believe that there will be a time of the end little horn person, and 2300 days involved with him ?

Oseas · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
I agree - and the WORD OF GOD says no one but the Father knows the hour of the Lord's return ("That day" in Matthew 24)
THE WORD OF GOD which is never wrong says..

1 Thess 5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

The word of God says we will not know when. So why are you trying to construct some timetable as if the Word of God says we WILL know when?

I think very interesting the discussion about the mysterious, intriguing, curious, enigmatic, provocative, stimulating, day of JESUS coming.

JESUS said: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only-Matt.24:36KJV. In fact is is impossible to know when the DAY 1.335 will fall in the calendar.
Maybe when finished the first half of the last week Daniel 9:27 week 70th, then we can discern it or maybe we can then have a prediction of when the day 1.335 will be in the calendar.

Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar?

1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

Oseas · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
And I don't care how old the article is - the bible is 2000 years old and we still quote that.

The comparision above is not valid.

Remember: Isaiah 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Douggg said:
When he adds in "and all that", he is being cynical.

Not really - if I didn't know what they were riffing off, I would not have said they were cynical but a little flippant.
But I do know what they are riffing off - and they're being playful.
They're riffing off this history book about the making of England in the Battle of Hastings. It's a famous book.

Douggg said:
Do you believe that there will be a time of the end little horn person, and 2300 days involved with him ?

I've already said I believe the Lord could return tonight.
Indeed, I believe he could return any second.
I've already said us Sydney Anglican Protestant Reformed Amillennials don't believe in any kind of end-times-table.
That there is NO prophecy left to be fulfilled - just the PROMISE that the Lord will return suddenly, like a thief in the night.
Is that clearer?

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Oseas said:
The comparision above is not valid.

Remember: Isaiah 55:8-9

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Which is born out in that God decided to send his Son to die for us so that we might live - not justification for some whacky end-times-table.

It's more about how God's ways are counter-cultural to us: as 1 Corinthians 1 says:-

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Oseas said:
I think very interesting the discussion about the mysterious, intriguing, curious, enigmatic, provocative, stimulating, day of JESUS coming.

JESUS said: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only-Matt.24:36KJV. In fact is is impossible to know when the DAY 1.335 will fall in the calendar.
Maybe when finished the first half of the last week Daniel 9:27 week 70th, then we can discern it or maybe we can then have a prediction of when the day 1.335 will be in the calendar.

Jewish Calendar - How to explain the difference of exactly 240 years in the Jewish calendar?

1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.

Daniel is a different kind of prophecy. Daniel also uses apocalyptic symbolism but is answering a different question - when the Lord will restore Israel and what that might look like. It's confusing, and not entirely clear what it is talking about in the 70 weeks. But the vision of the Son of Man coming before the Ancient of Days is clear - that's the gospel, the Son of Man conquering death and being welcomed into heaven (we see it's the gospel in Matt 24, but that's a bit tricky.) So given Daniel's Son of Man is about the gospel, I suspect the 70 weeks also points to the gospel. But none of the dates quite match up - so I'm wondering if the 'weeks' actually correspond to actual years - or if given it's wrapped in 7 times 10 it's all Hebrew number symbolism involving God's perfect timing and maybe indicating rough 'fractions' of the time till the gospel?

But Revelation is totally different. There's no Daniel asking when Israel will be saved. There's John writing to comfort his generation about to suffer the wrath of Rome. Has God abandoned them? What's happening and why? That's why John writes in apocalyptic symbolism - to talk about Rome without the Romans necessarily understanding it's all about them.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
I've already said I believe the Lord could return tonight.
Indeed, I believe he could return any second.
I've already said us Sydney Anglican Protestant Reformed Amillennials don't believe in any kind of end-times-table.
That there is NO prophecy left to be fulfilled - just the PROMISE that the Lord will return suddenly, like a thief in the night.
Is that clearer?

But what about the Daniel time of the end prophecy about little horn person, the transgression of desolation, and 2300 days involved with him ? Do you just disregard it ?

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Also the prophecy about Gog/Magog, for the latter years (Ezekiel 38:8), latter days (Ezekiel 38:16) ? Do you just regard that as well ?

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College - in America he would be called a Professor of OT. He says:-

While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment. The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition

Douggg · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people.

So the author is saying little horn's time/times/ half time persecution of the saints in Daniel 7:25, and God's judgment on him results in the destruction of the little horn's kingdom in Daniel 7:26. And the saints then given the kingdom of God in Daniel 7:27.

Why don't you think that is a time/times/half time prophecy yet to be fulfilled - concluding with Jesus's return?

eclipsenow · Jul 31, 2023

Douggg said:
So the author is saying little horn's time/times/ half time persecution of the saints in Daniel 7:25, and God's judgment on him results in the destruction of the little horn's kingdom in Daniel 7:26. And the saints then given the kingdom of God in Daniel 7:27.

Why don't you think that is a time/times/half time prophecy yet to be fulfilled - concluding with Jesus's return?

No, the author drew out the theological implications. Where did he say anything about the times?

Basically, in understanding Scripture we must take the clearest most unambiguous statements over the less clear.
Jesus clearly told his generation that they would not know about THAT DAY. So stay ready!
Paul told the Thessalonians they would not know about the times. So stay ready!
Both were 2000 years ago.

We have been staying ready for 2000 years - and who knows? We might be asked to stay ready for another 2000 years.

I am NOT going to take some obscure references to 3.5 years from Daniel and try to shove that over Jesus clear statement that we will not know the times.

But the thing is, when Jesus died on the cross and then rose again all power was given to him.
We live in an eternal kingdom now. In a sense, all the kingdoms of the earth were judged when Jesus died. But in eschatological tension. We now belong to a kingdom that will never be shaken! That's true now - even though we do not enjoy the fullness of it - yet. Now true, but not yet realised. Now theologically true as Jesus reigns from heaven, but not yet visible on earth.

So the little horn could be some Roman emperor.

Note: There are some mainly American Baptist Amillennials that still think there will be some sort of AntiChrist world government - but I'm not convinced. The Sydney Anglican theologians I know (I'm just a lay person) are mainly convinced that everything was fulfilled in the gospel events of Jesus in eschatological tension, the "now but not yet" nature of the kingdom we live in.

Douggg · Jul 31, 2023

eclipsenow said:
No, the author drew out the theological implications. Where did he say anything about the times?

The theological implications the author drew out was the judgment (in what he calls the final assize) on the little horn for his time/times/half time persecution of the saints was that the little horn's dominion and kingdom would be destroyed. And then the Kingdom of God given to the saints.

Daniel 7:25 is the crime by the little horn, a time/times/half persecution against the saints.
Daniel 7:26, is the assize, and judgment on the little horn
Daniel 7:27, is the saints given the Kingdom of God.

eclipsenow said:
I am NOT going to take some obscure references to 3.5 years from Daniel and try to shove that over Jesus clear statement that we will not know the times.

It is not obscure, and you own theologian referred to it. Jesus did not say we would not know the times. He said we will not know the day nor hour - of the rapture.

The time/times/half times term is found in three places in the bible:
Daniel 7:25
Daniel 12:7
Revelation 12:14

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Who is the "he" ? You have to trace back through the text to Daniel 11:36, to know it is the willful king who claims to be above ever god, and speaks marvelous things against the God of gods - i.e. he is the little horn person who in Daniel 7:25...

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

The time/times/half time in Daniel 12:7 is the same time/times/half time in Daniel 7:25.

How can you possibly discount all those things - to say there is no unfulfilled prophecy ?

eclipsenow · Aug 1, 2023

Douggg said:
The theological implications the author drew out was the judgment (in what he calls the final assize) on the little horn for his time/times/half time persecution of the saints was that the little horn's dominion and kingdom would be destroyed. And then the Kingdom of God given to the saints.

Daniel 7:25 is the crime by the little horn, a time/times/half persecution against the saints.
Daniel 7:26, is the assize, and judgment on the little horn
Daniel 7:27, is the saints given the Kingdom of God.

It is not obscure, and you own theologian referred to it. Jesus did not say we would not know the times. He said we will not know the day nor hour - of the rapture.

Nope. He did not know the day or hour of THAT DAY - and then what follows are 4 parables explaining the importance of being ready - and then the next one the sheep and goats the consequences of not being ready. That Day is the day of judgement.

The 3.5 years is half of God's perfect time.
It's Hebrew number symbolism for a short period of time.
Revelation 12:14 is a classic because it's actually Jesus being whisked away to Egypt during Herod's persecution.
Revelation 12 is a gospel recap - in case you missed it.

Douggg · Aug 1, 2023

eclipsenow said:
Nope. He did not know the day or hour of THAT DAY - and then what follows are 4 parables explaining the importance of being ready - and then the next one the sheep and goats the consequences of not being ready. That Day is the day of judgement.

The 3.5 years is half of God's perfect time.
It's Hebrew number symbolism for a short period of time.
Revelation 12:14 is a classic because it's actually Jesus being whisked away to Egypt during Herod's persecution.
Revelation 12 is a gospel recap - in case you missed it.

The time/times/half times is not a specific number, but an approximation of 3 1/2 years.

Is the final judgment, assize, past or future - according to Paul Williamson? And who in Daniel 7 is the final judgement upon ?

eclipsenow · Aug 1, 2023

Douggg said:
The time/times/half times is not a specific number, but an approximation of 3 1/2 years.

No - it's not.
It's Hebrew number symbolism.

Douggg said:
Is the final judgment, assize, past or future - according to Paul Williamson?

The FINAL judgement - as in That Day - is of course when Jesus returns on Judgement Day - the end of this world and NHNE.

But in the OT there are many local judgements known as The Day of The Lord.
It's a building compounding picture that is fully realised in the New Testament as an ultimate, eternal thing that will happen.

Douggg said:
And who in Daniel 7 is the final judgement upon ?

Try this... it's short.
(And famous - 3.4 million views.)

The False Prophet Is The Antichrist.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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