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the fallacy of the constancy of physical laws

randman

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Evolution depends upon an assumption, namely that physical laws are constant, and that no supernatural force intervenes in the life of the universe, and therefore basically evolution must have occurred rather than creation. There is no proof of this assumption. In fact, Big Bang theorists argue that at least in the beginning physical laws were not constant.

Moreover, empircism is wholly dependant on technology. Take for instance even the idea of supernatural or preternatural and natural. From a scientific perspective, nothing is supernatural if it is real. Supernatural then is just a label to describe forces and phenomenon that are unusually beyond our current technology. Rather than admit that it is logical that when people have experienced a miracle, some verifiable, that there is something real going on that defies our current understanding of the physical universe, but that we are too primitive to understand it yet, the hard-core empiricist and the atheist evolutionist simply state the phenomenon does not exist.


Is that logical? or just an attept to reinforce predetermined views of what is real, and what is not?

As a Christian, one thing I accept is that God does change laws at times. Take for instance the issue of the first family, and how incest would obviously have been the only way to reproduce, and then even Aberaham much later had married his half-sister with no sense of this being wrong. However, by Moses time, it was forbidden. This suggests to me that God does intervene in physical laws. Otherwise, the in-breeding would have had disastous effects. I might add that the thoughtful evolutionist is presented with the same problem, though less pronounced, in their scenarios, but they have no solution.

How could a mutation survive without in-breeding within a small group?
 
Originally posted by randman
the hard-core empiricist and the atheist evolutionist simply state the phenomenon does not exist.

What about Christians who accept evolution? Or will you be arguing that only creationists can be True Christians (TM)?


Faced with the same problem we acknowledge that Genesis is a mythological explaination no more accurate than those generated by and believed in India, Northern Europe, Greco-Roman culure, etc.

How could a mutation survive without in-breeding within a small group?

Selection and/or drift for starters, or have you not taken a course in evolutionary biology?
 
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Why do creationists always assume big bang cosmology and evolution are the same science? They're not.

We currently have no observable physical evidence that physical laws are subject to the whim of a supernatural meddler. And in the case of science, observable physical evidence, that holds up under review, is the only thing that matters.

In order for the Genesis story to be true, one must assume there have been external supernatural forces at play. However, all of the observable physical evidence that holds up under review (and countless college science lab experimentation), shows that the geological record conflicts with the story provided in Genesis. Should scientists ignore the evidence before their eyes?

Should we be as the fundamentalist in the early 1900’s (forget his name) who successfully had the value of PI legislated to be 3.0 in Tennessee because the Bible said so? Should we continue to believe the earth is the center of things because the Bible implies it? Should we also believe the earth is flat and square because the Bible implies it? Should we also believe unicorns once existed because the Bible discusses them?

The only assumptions at the core of evolution are made up by creationists.
 
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randman

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couple of points

1. As far as theistic evolutionists, I think their position is more logical than non-theistic evolutionists since you would need a God to make evolution work. It doesn't add up. Take the so-called first cell. How did it "evolve"? Evolution cannot happen without it and yet it is a huge leap of faith evolutionists make to beleive it happened spontaneously.

2. Um, being able to test and reproduce lab results, etc,..has nothing to do with whether something is true, but has everything to do with our level of technology.
 
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Originally posted by randman
Take the so-called first cell. How did it "evolve"? Evolution cannot happen without it and yet it is a huge leap of faith evolutionists make to beleive it happened spontaneously.

Evolution doesn't require a cell. (Have you heard of the RNA World?) Evolution is an emergent property of populations of imperfect replicators. Whatever leads up to such a replicator is not evolution and is not addressed by evolutionary biology. Such is the realm of biogenesis and chemistry.
 
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randman

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Common descent r equires a common starting point regardless of what it is, or what you call it. It is convenient to separate that as another subject since it is indeed such a huge leap of faith as to how that came into existence, and that there is absolutely no scientific reason to beleive life spontaneously generated from inorganic matter all on its own.

But evolutionists are not above taking ideas on faith when it suits them.
 
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Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Umm, randman, not every one who accepts evolution thinks life rose spontanously by natural causes alone. You are either chosing your words poorly or don't properly understand the issues involved.

It's been my experience that "creation science" believers and creationists don't understand evolution and pick their words very carefully.
 
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Originally posted by randman
So Rufus, do you accept it is scientifically valid to posit models that involve non-natural causes? Wouldn't that place one squarely in the Intelligent Design camp?

It's not scientifically valid, but such "models" for the origin of life do not impact evolution of life. If you want to discuss evolution, let's discuss evolution. If you want to discuss biogenesis let's discuss biogenesis. Just don't dicuss one when you want to discuss the other. Whatever criticisms you have of biogenesis, do nothing to prove a 6000 year old earth or that humans do not share a common ancestor with chimps and pond scum.
 
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Originally posted by randman
do you accept it is scientifically valid to posit models that involve non-natural causes? Wouldn't that place one squarely in the Intelligent Design camp?

Whether it is "scientifically valid" to posit supernatural causes in a model or not is beside the point. People who are in the Evolution camp often BELIEVE in supernatural causes, but do not deny the EVIDENCE for naturalistic common descent by evolution. They are therefore in the naturalistic evolution camp.

Others, who feel it is NECESSARY to bring in supernatural causes to explain the fact of evolution are in the "theistic evolution" camp.

The Intelligent Design camp ranges from strict creationists to theistic evolutionists.
 
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randman

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Hmm... so what it your point? Regardless, either way, people asre from your perspective, taking a leap of faith. The evolutionist, non-theistic, accepts a starting point that spontaneously generated all on its own from inorganic matter. The theist believes God did it.

Personally, the theist here is at least logical. I suspect you are in the non-theist camp though. Am I right?
 
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You say it is logical for someone to trust that your God created the first replicator.

Would you say the same about someone trusting their god(s) to have done the same thing?

What about someone who can explain it with the observable and testable properties of chemistry? That definatly has to be more reasonable then to attribute it to an unknowable supernatural being who left no evidence to determine wheather it was your God or one of the others worshiped around the world.
 
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