The failure of LBJ's Great Society

Redwingfan9 · Jun 17, 2020

jayem said:
That doesn’t answer my question. Do you really think churches and other charities are able to meet the financial needs of seriously ill people lacking health insurance?

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. With what would you replace Medicare and SS? Honestly, it seems to me that you’re living 200 years in the past. I don’t at all want every citizen’s upkeep being provided by government. But an advanced 21st century society without a systematic, adequately funded social safety net is untenable. It’s like Dickensian London, or 18th century France. You have a small group of wealthy elites at the top. A slightly larger middle class. And masses of have-nots and working poor at the bottom. That’s an unstable society. And just like the 1790s, it’s at high risk for violent revolution.

Why do you think hospitals often have denominational names? It's because they were charity hospitals, paid for by the donations of church goers and by the meager amount they collected from patients. There's no reason to expect taxpayers to foot the bill for anyone's healthcare.

We had a nation without a mass welfare system and without government intrusion into healthcare just 50 years ago. It is absurd to think that we must live under an oppressive government that steals our income to give to corporations, hospitals, welfare queens and a whole host of other wasteful expenditures. Our nation was freer and better off before government got involved in ever aspect of our lives.

Redwingfan9 · Jun 17, 2020

istodolez said:
So you're better than most people on earth? You know there are highly skilled people in 3rd world countries that do jobs for pennies on the dollar of what Americans do jobs for. (This is where you realize your comparison of poverty in the US to the rest of the world fails)

Again, you avoid the real discussion here. If I make the majority of my income from capital gains I am paying less taxes for my income than you are for yours. Regardless of where it shows up in the value-chain.

That's pretty hypothetical. I believe I could point to about a thousand Americans who were born rich and invested to become richer. What "work" are you talking about?

Income is income.

And paying the same taxes on that income as you pay on yours is a "disincentive"? Interesting. Sounds like special pleading.

I'm sure you do. And thankfully that's a fringe movement that will gain no following anyway. Taxes are only a problem for those people who want a free lunch.

There are 330 million Americans, you're worried about 1000 people who inherited some money? That's not reasonable.

As for my worth, for the record as Christians we are worth nothing apart from Christ. That said, my salary is the result of where I live and market forces. That people elsewhere in the US or world have a different market and can't earn as much money has nothing to do with me. It isn't the job of government to try to force everything to be equal.

That said, we in the US don't really know poverty, including our alleged poor.

istodolez · Jun 17, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
There's no reason to expect taxpayers to foot the bill for anyone's healthcare.

They already do. Unless you want to pass legislation that says ER's don't need to treat everyone who shows up and can withhold stabilization and treatment based on income.

We had a nation without a mass welfare system and without government intrusion into healthcare just 50 years ago.

Presidents going back to Teddy Roosevelt have discussed healthcare reform and access. That's a century of talking about the need for improved access to healthcare.

Our nation was freer and better off before government got involved in ever aspect of our lives.

Too bad history ACTUALLY tells us differently.

istodolez · Jun 17, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
There are 330 million Americans, you're worried about 1000 people who inherited some money? That's not reasonable.

Do you honestly think it's only 1000 Americans??? I know I said "thousand" but that's just an easy thing to type. There are a LOT of Americans who inherit wealth they didn't work for, who then turn around and invest and make money on that. So your hypothesis of investment AFTER work is flawed.

As for my worth, for the record as Christians we are worth nothing apart from Christ.

Unless someone asks you for some of your money, right? Then you will sit at the right hand of the father to judge the deserving.

That said, my salary is the result of where I live and market forces.

Your salary is also a function of the industry you work in, whether you are unionized or not, and "benchmarking" done by YOUR employer against their competitors.

That people elsewhere in the US or world have a different market and can't earn as much money has nothing to do with me.

But yet you tell poor people in America that they must compare their poverty to the rest of the world.

That said, we in the US don't really know poverty, including our alleged poor.

But you are quick to defend how YOUR level of income is unrelated to the rest of the world.

Double standard.

DaisyDay · Jun 17, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
How does one measure government kindness?

By how it treats the unfortunate among its denizens.

Belk · Jun 17, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
What is poverty though? The people we claim live in poverty have goods and lifestyles that are upper middle and upper class compared not only to the rest of the world today but compared to the rich of the world in centuries past. The average person in poverty in America has a grab bag of luxuries ranging from cars, tv's and smart phones to refrigerators, running water, air conditioning and central heating. That they may be poor compared to some other people in America is really quite trivial when half the world lives on less than $2 a day.

Let me get this straight. Basic transportation, communication, food storage, heat, and water are now luxuries?

cow451 · Jun 18, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
In 1940 89% of black families were in poverty. By 1960 it was down to 47%. It then slowed in the 60's and 70's and now hovers around 30%. At the start of affirmative action black poverty was 30%, it dropped 1 point in 20 years.

Why did the decrease in black poverty slow? In 1960 around 75% of black children were in married homes, today 75% of black births are illegitimate and children live in one parent homes. The welfare state replaced fathers. The end result is a massive increase in black crime 45-50% of violent crime is committed by blacks, mostly against other blacks. The drug war has made those numbers worse of course by creating drug gangs that exist to feed demand for drugs but the lack of fathers in the home, their income replaced by the state, has had immeasurable negative consequences.

Minimum wage laws huet blacks, particularly teenagers. When people earn their market worth, there are fewer applicants and less competition. Minimum wage laws force below market value labor to compete with more valuable labor for jobs that are lower in number because of state action. Who does this hurt? Teenagers of all races. In black communities, the very people you don't want idle on the streets are the very ones priced out of the market by minimum wage laws.

Affirmative action has hurt blacks. It has taken kids who are capable of college work and put them in colleges a notch or two above their capabilities. They end up on academic probation, they feel inferior, they're resentful and many drop out. If they had gone to colleges they're capable of doing the work at, they would thrive.

The problem in this country isn't systematic racism. The problem is liberal do gooders who use government to further an agenda that actually hurts blacks. Slavery and the wickedness of government enforced racism (Jim Crow) couldn't destroy the black family but after two generations the liberal welfare state has decimated the black family all while claiming everyone who doesn't support their policies is a racist. The Great Society failed to do what free markets and individualism had been doing for blacks even with outrageous government blocks put in their way.

White folks talking about Black people’s problems can be hilarious at times.

cow451 · Jun 18, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
Why do you think hospitals often have denominational names? It's because they were charity hospitals, paid for by the donations of church goers and by the meager amount they collected from patients. There's no reason to expect taxpayers to foot the bill for anyone's healthcare.

We had a nation without a mass welfare system and without government intrusion into healthcare just 50 years ago. It is absurd to think that we must live under an oppressive government that steals our income to give to corporations, hospitals, welfare queens and a whole host of other wasteful expenditures. Our nation was freer and better off before government got involved in ever aspect of our lives.

Your lack of understanding about “charity” hospitals is stunning. Some of that may have been true 60 years ago but not in the 40 years I’ve been in healthcare.

The only real charity hospitals are St. Jude’s and the Shriner’s hospitals.

Redwingfan9 · Jun 18, 2020

DaisyDay said:
By how it treats the unfortunate among its denizens.

How do you objectively quantify that?

Redwingfan9 · Jun 18, 2020

Belk said:
Let me get this straight. Basic transportation, communication, food storage, heat, and water are now luxuries?

Over the course of human history, absolutely they are. Just 100 years ago cars were rare, phones did not exist in homes, refrigeration was limited to an ice box with literal ice in it, heat was generated by fire and indoor plumbing was only starting to become a middle class phenomenon. 200 years ago basically none of the things we have today existed. Most humans in history could only dream of the things the people we call poor today have.

Redwingfan9 · Jun 18, 2020

cow451 said:
White folks talking about Black people’s problems can be hilarious at times.

Pretending that white people aren't permitted to discuss problems in this country, regardless of race, is how we get to the place we're in today.

Redwingfan9 · Jun 18, 2020

cow451 said:
Your lack of understanding about “charity” hospitals is stunning. Some of that may have been true 60 years ago but not in the 40 years I’ve been in healthcare.

The only real charity hospitals are St. Jude’s and the Shriner’s hospitals.

I agree the hospitals of today with denominational names are no longer charity hospitals. They historically were though. That changed in the 60's.

Arcangl86 · Jun 18, 2020

cow451 said:
Your lack of understanding about “charity” hospitals is stunning. Some of that may have been true 60 years ago but not in the 40 years I’ve been in healthcare.

The only real charity hospitals are St. Jude’s and the Shriner’s hospitals.

And even Shriners now takes insurance, though the families still pay nothing.

Kentonio · Jun 18, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
Why do you think hospitals often have denominational names? It's because they were charity hospitals, paid for by the donations of church goers and by the meager amount they collected from patients. There's no reason to expect taxpayers to foot the bill for anyone's healthcare.

We had a nation without a mass welfare system and without government intrusion into healthcare just 50 years ago. It is absurd to think that we must live under an oppressive government that steals our income to give to corporations, hospitals, welfare queens and a whole host of other wasteful expenditures. Our nation was freer and better off before government got involved in ever aspect of our lives.

Steals your income? Aww, you poor victim! You only live in the richest country on earth, enjoying a standard of living that 3/4 of the world would kill for, but no someone wants you to contribute to protecting and aiding the weakest and most vulnerable in society so therefore you're a victim of an oppressive government.

The lack of self awareness is stunning quite frankly.

Redwingfan9 · Jun 18, 2020

Kentonio said:
Steals your income? Aww, you poor victim! You only live in the richest country on earth, enjoying a standard of living that 3/4 of the world would kill for, but no someone wants you to contribute to protecting and aiding the weakest and most vulnerable in society so therefore you're a victim of an oppressive government.

The lack of self awareness is stunning quite frankly.

You support theft, a clear violation of the 10 commandments. Worse, you oppose the model explicitly given to us in scripture to care for the poor. It isn't supposed to be the government handing out money they've taken from others to give to ne'er-do-well's and people making other sinful life decisions. Charity is voluntary, given to the poorest believers by the church based on their need and situation. It's personal, not a soulless bureaucracy.

Arcangl86 · Jun 18, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
You support theft, a clear violation of the 10 commandments. Worse, you oppose the model explicitly given to us in scripture to care for the poor. It isn't supposed to be the government handing out money they've taken from others to give to ne'er-do-well's and people making other sinful life decisions. Charity is voluntary, given to the poorest believers by the church based on their need and situation. It's personal, not a soulless bureaucracy.

Governments provide services and use taxes to do so. That's not theft. There might be disagreements on what services should be provided and how much to tax, but taxes are needed for a government to exist, and most of the things we use to live our daily life are the result of the government.

Kentonio · Jun 18, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
You support theft, a clear violation of the 10 commandments. Worse, you oppose the model explicitly given to us in scripture to care for the poor. It isn't supposed to be the government handing out money they've taken from others to give to ne'er-do-well's and people making other sinful life decisions. Charity is voluntary, given to the poorest believers by the church based on their need and situation. It's personal, not a soulless bureaucracy.

Your prosperity gospel version of Christianity is something I would despise even if I were a Christian. Jesus spends half the bible endlessly telling you to look after the sick and the poor and to stop craving money, and your take away from that is that social welfare is evil and that your money is sacred.

Redwingfan9 · Jun 18, 2020

Arcangl86 said:
Governments provide services and use taxes to do so. That's not theft. There might be disagreements on what services should be provided and how much to tax, but taxes are needed for a government to exist, and most of the things we use to live our daily life are the result of the government.

Most of the things we use are the result of government? That's absurd. Outside of roads, most people don't come into contact with government or anything remotely affiliated with the state.

The bigger question though is what authority does God give the state? If the government exceeds the authority God has given them in scripture then they are unjust and tyrannical. I would submit God gives the state a very limited role in our lives.

Redwingfan9 · Jun 18, 2020

Kentonio said:
Your prosperity gospel version of Christianity is something I would despise even if I were a Christian. Jesus spends half the bible endlessly telling you to look after the sick and the poor and to stop craving money, and your take away from that is that social welfare is evil and that your money is sacred.

I don't know where you're getting prosperity gospel from me. I absolutely reject the prosperity gospel and the notion that God blesses his people with great riches. That is quite contrary to what we have seen over 2000 years or perhaps better put it is absurd that God skipped over 1900 years of Christians, failing to bless them financially.

Arcangl86 · Jun 18, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
Most of the things we use are the result of government? That's absurd. Outside of roads, most people don't come into contact with government or anything remotely affiliated with the state.

The bigger question though is what authority does God give the state? If the government exceeds the authority God has given them in scripture then they are unjust and tyrannical. I would submit God gives the state a very limited role in our lives.

You really need to look up ARPANET. That doesn't even count stuff like police and fire departments, building inspections to ensure contractors aren't building unsafe structures in an attempt to cut costs, food inspectors to make sure we aren't buying tainted meat, utility commissions to prevent price gouging on things like electricity, water and gas, etc. etc. etc.

And scripture talks almost nothing about the role of the government, so you are making an argument from silence.

The failure of LBJ's Great Society

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