The Existence of Freewill

The Conductor · Jul 13, 2013

*Bursts through door*

What kind of free will are we talking about? Pelagian? Semi-Pelagian? Augustinian?
As James said, (paraphrasing here)
"You say you believe in free will. You do well! Even the Calvinists believe, and shudder."

Davidnic · Jul 13, 2013

This has been on your mind for some time. I remember the other thread about pre-destination...I hope you get some answers

StevenMerten · Jul 14, 2013

NAB SIR 15:11 Man's Free Will.

Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

NAB MAT 7:12

" . . . treat others the way you would have them treat you: this sums up the law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to damnation is wide, the road is clear, and many choose to travel it. But how narrow is the gate that leads to life, how rough the road, and how few there are who find it!"

NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.

"Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy."

Choices of the Heart

WarriorAngel · Jul 14, 2013

Not having free will would make God some sort of monster.
Like a Creator only creating us to damn us and watch us suffer on earth.

Free will means there is a loving God Who wants us to love Him back - for He had no such need to create us except in wanting our love. Everything we do - is based on us - our intellect - our choices - our desires.
He is hoping He is our desire.
He knows our imperfections - but out of love He came to die to show us the magnitude of that great love that nothing - not even the pains of crucifixion is enough to keep Him from reaching out to us.

Take your pick.

Personally - i see nothing but free will used in every living being.
I make choices - i listen to the inside telling me 'Thats wrong - dont do it.' and if i do it anyway - I made that choice.

No one makes us choices for us - not now not ever.

Can anyone seriously tell me they are devoid of intellect? And are completely unable to discern what is good or bad and or know what is good or bad and knowingly do it anyway?

If you blame God - clearly you have issues with accepting responsibility.

One more thing - the scriptures - the parable of the vineyard is the Lord going out and calling workers even til the last hour.
Thats the last call he gives us - knowing when our end is - He calls us once again to turn to Him - so He doesnt lose us.

Thats not a monger wishing to damn anyone... thats a loving parent not giving up and hoping we come around.

Chany · Jul 15, 2013

WarriorAngel said:
Not having free will would make God some sort of monster.
Like a Creator only creating us to damn us and watch us suffer on earth.

Free will means there is a loving God Who wants us to love Him back - for He had no such need to create us except in wanting our love. Everything we do - is based on us - our intellect - our choices - our desires.
He is hoping He is our desire.
He knows our imperfections - but out of love He came to die to show us the magnitude of that great love that nothing - not even the pains of crucifixion is enough to keep Him from reaching out to us.

Take your pick.

Personally - i see nothing but free will used in every living being.
I make choices - i listen to the inside telling me 'Thats wrong - dont do it.' and if i do it anyway - I made that choice.

No one makes us choices for us - not now not ever.

Can anyone seriously tell me they are devoid of intellect? And are completely unable to discern what is good or bad and or know what is good or bad and knowingly do it anyway?

If you blame God - clearly you have issues with accepting responsibility.

One more thing - the scriptures - the parable of the vineyard is the Lord going out and calling workers even til the last hour.
Thats the last call he gives us - knowing when our end is - He calls us once again to turn to Him - so He doesnt lose us.

Thats not a monger wishing to damn anyone... thats a loving parent not giving up and hoping we come around.

Appearing to have something and having something are two entirely different things.

The problem lies with the fact that, as was already said, everything besides God is a second cause. I am arguing that everything about us, including our intellect, is determined by causes before it. Because we are ultimately the product of causes, our decision making power is ultimately predetermined. How we think is caused by causes before us, out of our control.

LoAmmi · Jul 15, 2013

Chany said:
Appearing to have something and having something are two entirely different things.

The problem lies with the fact that, as was already said, everything besides God is a second cause. I am arguing that everything about us, including our intellect, is determined by causes before it. Because we are ultimately the product of causes, our decision making power is ultimately predetermined. How we think is caused by causes before us, out of our control.

Well, if we take a purely scriptural point of view, HaShem makes it very clear that we have the power to choose the path of life or the path of death. Since I consider Him to be the foremost authority on the subject, I'll go with His declaration.

Irenaeus · Jul 15, 2013

The problem lies with the fact that, as was already said, everything besides God is a second cause. I am arguing that everything about us, including our intellect, is determined by causes before it. Because we are ultimately the product of causes, our decision making power is ultimately predetermined. How we think is caused by causes before us, out of our control.

Not to razz you, but for a person with a tagline like "Scholasticism forever!" You don't know Thomas' insights on causality?

Check out Summa Theologica, I-I, Q 22, A 4, "Whether providence imposes necessity on things forseen"

I answer that, Divine providence imposes necessity upon some things; not upon all, as some formerly believed. For to providence it belongs to order things towards an end. Now after the divine goodness, which is an extrinsic end to all things, the principal good in things themselves is the perfection of the universe; which would not be, were not all grades of being found in things. Whence it pertains to divine providence to produce every grade of being. And thus it has prepared for some things necessary causes, so that they happen of necessity; for others contingent causes, that they may happen by contingency, according to the nature of their proximate causes.

It is perfectly appropriate to say that we are contingent beings in a system of contingency. That much is correct. However, the fact that we can choose within the realm of contingency is inviolate.

Say for instance we lived a in a world where Christian Forums were not invented (maybe it would be a better world, I do not know ).

You of course would then in a sense be predetermined that if you wanted to discuss the idea of Free Will, you may have to turn to just plain Google or to books on the Subject, or take Philosophy classes. Contingency and the nature of our unique contingencies does in a sense predetermine the breadth of our possible choices, but it does not predetermine the choice itself.

LoAmmi · Jul 15, 2013

MikeK said:
I don't. I can't seem to view free will as some great gift. It seems to me that the absence of freewill, with each person forced to worship God the way God wants them to during this finite existence would be a much more merciful gift.

MikeK said:
Right. That's a gift I never asked for. I did not ask to be created, and I don't think I would have elected to be created into a finite life on an imperfect planet with a possibility of eternal torture to follow.

Wow. I don't mean to insult, but that does make sense within a Christian point of view and makes Christian theology pretty dark and scary in that view of it.

Irenaeus · Jul 15, 2013

Wow. I don't mean to insult, but that does make sense within a Christian point of view and makes Christian theology pretty dark and scary in that view of it.

Forgive me also for sounding bleak, but I am in whole agreement with this assessment, that such a worldview is, well, dark. It also happens to be heretical. Because if I was not truly free, I could never truly love.

LoAmmi · Jul 15, 2013

Irenaeus said:
Forgive me also for sounding bleak, but I am in whole agreement with this assessment, that such a worldview is, well, dark. It also happens to be heretical. Because if I was not truly free, I could never truly love.

I agree with you.

I think the existence of freewill in humans is, like most things, a blessing and a curse for us. I see almost all of our nature as being that way. Sexual desire is necessary for procreation but, when we let it control us it leads us to sexual sins. The desire to better ourselves, including getting a good job and advancing in it to support our families is a good thing. But, when it gets out of control it leads to greed and sin. I think a lot of our life is learning to cope with our nature and control it.

Genesis 4 sums it up when HaShem tells Cain:
7. If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.

We will stumble, we will fall, and we will fail, but I like to think our goal is learning to rule over it and that's what our freewill is for.

Irenaeus · Jul 15, 2013

We will stumble, we will fall, and we will fail, but I like to think our goal is learning to rule over it and that's what our freewill is for.

I agree! I also think that if we did not have weaknesses, we wouldn't be half as inclined to know we had a need for God as we do. I've come to a point in my life where I am grateful for my weaknesses because it makes me go to him. If I thought I was perfect, I would be perfect, alone...and even more alone, because then I would be conceited about it.

LoAmmi · Jul 15, 2013

Irenaeus said:
I agree! I also think that if we did not have weaknesses, we wouldn't be half as inclined to know we had a need for God as we do. I've come to a point in my life where I am grateful for my weaknesses because it makes me go to him. If I thought I was perfect, I would be perfect, alone...and even more alone, because then I would be conceited about it.

David seems to know this better than most.

Irenaeus · Jul 15, 2013

Amen!

Davidnic · Jul 15, 2013

MikeK said:
Right. That's a gift I never asked for. I did not ask to be created, and I don't think I would have elected to be created into a finite life on an imperfect planet with a possibility of eternal torture to follow.

You and I disagree on this one. I honestly would take the chance of Hell for the freedom to love when it is put in that context. I really would. I think, had if been my choice I would have elected to be created only under these conditions. I really do think the finite life and imperfect planet is very important to teaching us real love for God and each other.

At least that is my view on it; that the way things to lead to the greatest good have a flipside that I am willing to deal with.

Chany · Jul 15, 2013

Irenaeus said:
Not to razz you, but for a person with a tagline like "Scholasticism forever!" You don't know Thomas' insights on causality?

Check out Summa Theologica, I-I, Q 22, A 4, "Whether providence imposes necessity on things forseen"

It is perfectly appropriate to say that we are contingent beings in a system of contingency. That much is correct. However, the fact that we can choose within the realm of contingency is inviolate.

Say for instance we lived a in a world where Christian Forums were not invented (maybe it would be a better world, I do not know ).

You of course would then in a sense be predetermined that if you wanted to discuss the idea of Free Will, you may have to turn to just plain Google or to books on the Subject, or take Philosophy classes. Contingency and the nature of our unique contingencies does in a sense predetermine the breadth of our possible choices, but it does not predetermine the choice itself.

I'm not arguing that choices do not technically exist. I'm arguing that, because the process we make decisions with (call it intellect, reasoning, deciding) is determined by causes before us and out of our control, our minds are ultimately predetermined.

I chose X out of X and Y because I experienced A, B, and C. A, B, and C are ultimately out of my control because they were either:

1) An outside influence completely outside of our control.

2) The result of another decision in the same predicament as we currently face.

MikeK · Jul 15, 2013

Irenaeus said:
Forgive me also for sounding bleak, but I am in whole agreement with this assessment, that such a worldview is, well, dark. It also happens to be heretical. Because if I was not truly free, I could never truly love.

I think you're limiting God's power. "I was not truly free, I could never truly love" simply isn't a true statement if God is all-powerful. God, the inventor of life and love and freedom could create you to love with or without freedom.

MikeK · Jul 15, 2013

Davidnic said:
You and I disagree on this one. I honestly would take the chance of Hell for the freedom to love when it is put in that context. I really would. I think, had if been my choice I would have elected to be created only under these conditions. I really do think the finite life and imperfect planet is very important to teaching us real love for God and each other.

At least that is my view on it; that the way things to lead to the greatest good have a flipside that I am willing to deal with.

I understand you're viewpoint, but I guess at heart I'm a pragmatic conservative. I would not enter into a coint toss to determine whether I recieved infinate riches or infinate debt, I wouldn't do it for immediate death vs infinate life, and I'd prefer no life than risking eternal torture. I guess I'm more motivated by punishments than rewards.

Irenaeus · Jul 15, 2013

I'm not arguing that choices do not technically exist. I'm arguing that, because the process we make decisions with (call it intellect, reasoning, deciding) is determined by causes before us and out of our control, our minds are ultimately predetermined.

I chose X out of X and Y because I experienced A, B, and C. A, B, and C are ultimately out of my control because they were either:

1) An outside influence completely outside of our control.

2) The result of another decision in the same predicament as we currently face.

Please read the section of Thomas that I mentioned earlier, if you haven't already.

Nothing you said means that free will is not free. Just because events have happened to us, even mental events, it does not mean we are slaves to those events. As I said before, they may limit the breadth of our choices, but we are still free to choose within that breadth.

I think you're limiting God's power. "I was not truly free, I could never truly love" simply isn't a true statement if God is all-powerful. God, the inventor of life and love and freedom could create you to love with or without freedom.

Have you been reading a lot of Sartre?

MikeK · Jul 15, 2013

I have never heard of Sartre.

Irenaeus · Jul 15, 2013

One of his primary ideas was a tension between God's omnipotence and your free will.

It ultimately led to his atheism.

The Existence of Freewill

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