The dual effort in the creation of the God-Man

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2019

BCsenior said:
Could be, but I just came up with it by myself (or was it by the Holy Spirit?).
Ditto for the dual stuff.
I mean, has anyone commented on the dual effort?
The Word was involved in Jesus being fully God.
The Holy Spirit was involved in Jesus being created as a man (fully or not).
Let's everyone stop for a moment ... and think, instead of writing.

One might say the Incarnation involved the Trinity!

yeshuaslavejeff · Oct 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
One might say the Incarnation involved the Trinity!

I think others think it is better to simply quote and to simply believe SCRIPTURE. Simply.

Blade · Oct 31, 2019

From what I read and I understand.. the fall of man... Christ had to be .. as some say "fully" man. As He walked this earth.. you stood next to a man... the messiah. He unlike US knew the authority He had on this earth as does every believer. And when the sweet sweet Holy Spirit came on Him.. "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

And since He is the only Judge.. to walk to do what He had planed before the foundation of this world He had to be man. Not created.. for He ..as He said.. I AM .. has always been. What did Satan say when trying to tempt Him? "And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it." He had to be man. What He did here the works..... did He not say "greater things shall you do because I go to the Father". It had to be done legally. Could not be GOD and just take back what we "delivered" over to Satan freely..yet by a lie.

His student · Oct 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
I believe this is the "modalist" view held by some sects of Pentecostals.

I don't see the position of BCsenior as being that of Oneness Pentecostals.

Actually - it's pretty hard to tell exactly what he believes since he plays so many games and isn't forthright.

The Oneness view isn't heresy. It certainly affirms the full divinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It is simply another way of seeing the relationship of Jesus to God - much like that of the early church before the doctrine of the Trinity was adopted to explain the nature of God. Their view is definitely not Trinitarian in the way that Trinitarians have virtually redefined the meaning of monotheism. In fact they view the Trinity as heresy.

What the Oneness view insists on is that there is but one God who is an eternal Spirit just as God stressed over and over again in the O.T.

Their view is that the Father/Son relationship only became reality at the incarnation (as in "Thou art my son today I have begotten you" as opposed to the Nicene creeds statement that the Son is "eternally" begotten of the Father).

The view of the Trinity is that there are 3 distinct "persons" existing eternally within the Godhead.

The view of Oneness is that there is but one person beside Whom there is no other.

Before the incarnation God existed eternally only as God. After the incarnation God existed and will always exist as both God and man in Jesus.

Although Jesus was man and God in totality - it is much like our relationship to our Heavenly Father where in we function as humans created and sustained by Him. In the case of Jesus, although He was also God, He emptied Himself of divine rights and functioned fully as a man only.

In that respect only we see Him addressing God as His Father, much as we must do.

Big subject I know. But I'll just leave it at that.

The point is that I believe that BCsenior is espousing something quite different than what Oneness Pentecostals believe.

PaulCyp1 · Oct 31, 2019

Yes, the man Jesus was created in the womb of His mother. He had existed from all eternity as God, second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, but Jesus Christ was His human nature, which did not exist until 2,000 years ago.

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2019

His student said:
The Oneness view isn't heresy.

Indeed it is.

His student said:
It certainly affirms the full divinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Not just at the same time but in 'modes.' Thus the heresy.

eleos1954 · Oct 31, 2019

BCsenior said:
They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?

The Word was God who became flesh (Jesus)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God” (John 1:1)

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14)

The Holy Spirit who is God caused Mary to conceive

The angel Gabriel said to Mary: “The Holy Spirit will
come upon you, and the power of the Most High will
overshadow you. So the Baby to be born will be holy
and He will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)

Because no one can see God and live.

Exodus 33:20
20And He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”

The angel Gabriel said to Joseph: “For the Child within her
was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a Son,
and you are to name Him Jesus” (Matthew 1:20-21)

“… while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant
through the power of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18)

IMO, Jesus was called “the Son of God” because
the Holy Spirit “played the role of His father”.
(He was the “father”, Mary was the mother.)

So, why was this dual effort to create Jesus required?

Who is the only true God?

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

“… and we are in Him (Father God) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)

All Scriptures are from the NKJV.

Thir7ySev3n · Oct 31, 2019

BCsenior said:
They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?

The Word was God who became flesh (Jesus)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God” (John 1:1)

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14)

The Holy Spirit who is God caused Mary to conceive

The angel Gabriel said to Mary: “The Holy Spirit will
come upon you, and the power of the Most High will
overshadow you. So the Baby to be born will be holy
and He will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)

The angel Gabriel said to Joseph: “For the Child within her
was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a Son,
and you are to name Him Jesus” (Matthew 1:20-21)

“… while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant
through the power of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18)

IMO, Jesus was called “the Son of God” because
the Holy Spirit “played the role of His father”.
(He was the “father”, Mary was the mother.)

So, why was this dual effort to create Jesus required?

Who is the only true God?

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

“… and we are in Him (Father God) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)

All Scriptures are from the NKJV.

The divine part of Jesus is eternal, the human part of Christ is created. This is part of Him being truly human in His humanity. This is not difficult and is actually one of the simpler doctrines in the Bible. How these natures coalesce is a wonderful mystery, but the description of the unity itself is exceedingly simple and explicit, and so one is left to wonder just as mysteriously how so many bizarre interpretations can be inferred.

GOD Shines Forth! · Oct 31, 2019

Der Alter said:
Here is a sabot to toss into the machinery.

Psalms 49:7-9
(7) (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -
(8) (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -
(9) (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.

I read that just the other day. Love that Psalm.

Miss Shelby · Oct 31, 2019

This is why the teaching of Mary the Mother of God is so important. In the early centuries discussions like this were initiated by Nestorians who emphasized Jesus human nature to be independent of his divine nature. Strictly translated ‘God bearer’ the teaching states that Jesus human nature came from his mother and was intertwined with his divine nature, inseparably by the power of the holy spirit. This question has been answered and put to rest.

BBAS 64 · Oct 31, 2019

BCsenior said:
They say Jesus was “fully God” and “fully Man”.
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?

The Word was God who became flesh (Jesus)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God” (John 1:1)

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14)

The Holy Spirit who is God caused Mary to conceive

The angel Gabriel said to Mary: “The Holy Spirit will
come upon you, and the power of the Most High will
overshadow you. So the Baby to be born will be holy
and He will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)

The angel Gabriel said to Joseph: “For the Child within her
was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a Son,
and you are to name Him Jesus” (Matthew 1:20-21)

“… while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant
through the power of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18)

IMO, Jesus was called “the Son of God” because
the Holy Spirit “played the role of His father”.
(He was the “father”, Mary was the mother.)

So, why was this dual effort to create Jesus required?

Who is the only true God?

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)

“… and we are in Him (Father God) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)

All Scriptures are from the NKJV.

Good Day,

Me thinks we have here a total misunderstand of what the scripture teaches and what happened at the nicean council... Just sayin'

In Him,

Bill

sdowney717 · Oct 31, 2019

Here is another little thought of verse (14) confirming Christ and the Father are One.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

And Christ tells us before Abraham was, I AM. Which would have been before being found as born in a manger.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Christ identifying Himself as the 'I AM' confirms he is God.

His student · Oct 31, 2019

redleghunter said:
Not just at the same time but in 'modes.

Yes - all at the same time - just not eternally before the incarnation.

As a Father to Jesus - as His creator God Who remained Spirit as He always has been even as He also dwelled and always will dwell for the rest of eternity as a man. He was addressed as Father by the man Jesus just as we other humans see and address God.

As a Son as a human Who was created and sustained by God just as we are. A human Who was God as well but Who had emptied Himself of divine prerogatives in order to live and overcome as the man that He was and Who prayed to His Father constantly.

As a Spirit just as God has always existed and will always exist.

Where's the heresy in that?

Just because they see the one true God person beside Whom there is no other as exactly that and not as an alleged God the Son person existing beside or within a God the Father person with a God the Spirit person there with them in eternity past - doesn't make it heresy.

As for their baptism in the single name of Jesus way to salvation doctrine - I of course disagree with salvation through water baptism.

But, as they quickly and correctly point out, Jesus told His disciples to baptize in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Then when the apostles baptized it was in the name of Jesus - Who is at once the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - just as He and the scriptures claim Him to be.

While the Trinity is a legitimate view of the mystery left to us considering God's nature - it is not the only legitimate view.

One can expound their own view of the scriptures we have to deal with on this subject without condemning others.

We should never condemn those to Hell who view this mystery a little differently than we happen to. Nor should they condemn Trinitarians to Hell for failing to confirm God as One person but rather teaching that He is 3 persons.

If one side denied the full divinity of the Son or the Father or the Holy Spirit - that would be another kettle of fish entirely. But neither side does.

P.S.
I've always found it interesting that Trinitarians are so willing and eager to condemn so called modalists as heretics when a full 95% of those who subscribe to the Trinity would and do give a modalistic description of the doctrine of the Trinity when pressed to do so.

On the other hand Oneness proponents willingly and eagerly condemn Trinitarians as heretics when 95% of them cannot give a proper definition of Oneness theology when they are pressed to do so.

Barney2.0 · Oct 31, 2019

PaulCyp1 said:
Yes, the man Jesus was created in the womb of His mother. He had existed from all eternity as God, second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, but Jesus Christ was His human nature, which did not exist until 2,000 years ago.

That’s actually Nestorianism, in which the two natures are separate people, Jesus always existed throughout eternity as both the man and as God as the two natures being united eternally without division or separation, the person of Christ could claim the properties and attributes of both natures. Thus the man Christ could claim to be eternal just through the divine nature in unity with it, the divine nature could experience death through the humanity united to it and so forth. Natures are things, they don’t have names like Jesus Christ nor do they do things, the nature is a thing and being of a hypostasis or person. The person is the one who experiences things and has names not the nature.

Barney2.0 · Oct 31, 2019

Also to answer the OP’s original question, Jesus was a divine hypostasis or person not a human one, which means he wasn’t created. Misunderstandings like this happen when people don’t know the difference between the hypostasis and ousia of a thing, however they can lead us to serious heresies like the one this thread is based on if they aren’t clarified. Jesus being fully divine and uncreated is a divine hypostasis or person obviously with divine ousia which means essence, substance, or nature. During the incarnation in the virgin’s Christ took a second human nature as the result of him undergoing a human birth in which he united to the flesh which is the result of uniting to the human nature of the virgin Mary and taking it on. After that these two natures remained and continue to remain in unity with each other, without mixture or separation of any kind of division and that is how it always will be forever. Jesus is still a divine uncreated hypostasis or person with an uncreated divine nature and a human nature that he created for himself, so Jesus having a human nature does not mean he was or became created, if you know the difference between a hypostasis and nature.

dailyprayerwarrior · Oct 31, 2019

Jesus is God. He is the Creator. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the awesome Holy Spirit are all One. "Let Us make man in our image." It goes beyond our understanding but one day we will understand. Amen and amen.

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2019

His student said:
In the case of Jesus, although He was also God, He emptied Himself of divine rights and functioned fully as a man only.

That is not what is communicated in Philippians. There is no evidence in the text God the Son emptied Himself of Deity.

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2019

His student said:
Yes - all at the same time - just not eternally before the incarnation.

The Divine Logos existed eternally with the Father before the foundations of the earth. Before created time and space and matter.

John 1 makes this quite clear.

Vicky gould · Oct 31, 2019

Of course The human body of Christ’s was created flesh because the Lord had to be able to lIterally die to pay for our siN. For His resurrection and so on. There are many things we can’t answer because God dIdn’t say. But that Is how I understand It.

joshua 1 9 · Oct 31, 2019

BCsenior said:
All human beings are created …
and since Jesus was “fully Man”, wasn’t He also created?

Jesus became a part of His Creation. "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," (John 1:14) He became as we are so that we could become as He is. Even though He is the Son of God He entered the world as a servant. We then become Joint Heirs with Him.

The dual effort in the creation of the God-Man

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