The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Kenny'sID · Jun 24, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
But i grow weary of chatting to someone who appears unable to answer simple questions put to them. They only seem able to criticise the person they are supposed to be debating with, nothing more

I would suggest you go with "growing weary" and get out now before you dig your hole any deeper. I'm starting to feel bad for you doing this to yourself.

stuart lawrence · Jun 24, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
I would suggest you go with "growing weary" and get out now before you dig your hole any deeper. I'm starting to feel bad for you doing this to yourself.

I have to say, even Jason attempts to respond to questions.
It appears all you can do is make empty statements criticising someone else while being unable to answer any questions put to you.
And at the same time, you suggest I am digging a hole for myself.
I will leave you to it. I joined this site for debate, debate is where both participants answer questions

Christian Counseling Help · Jun 24, 2017

I wrote an article on this once, "How to be saved" How to be Saved
My personal belief is that this eternal salvation is like the eternal life you inherit when you find the kingdom of God within your heart. Similar to Buddhist teachings. I think it is a mistake to believe that this eternal life means you will go to heaven if you are "good enough" and live forever there. I believe instead that this eternal life can be found within you. It is in the moment, and can be reached if you achieve a certain spiritual level.
Of course you could take this discussion to a quantum physics level, where there is now belief in a multi-verse, and that your soul can be split up into different lives living on different time lines. Or as Einstein said, matter is energy, so if we die, where does all our life energy go, regardless of how good we were or how many times we went to church? The bible says that the devil uses the fear of death to achieve his means. If you go to church because you fear hell and want to live happily in heaven forever, I think your motivations are wrong and you are missing the entire point.

Kenny'sID · Jun 24, 2017

Christian Counseling Help said:
I think it is a mistake to believe that this eternal life means you will go to heaven if you are "good enough" and live forever there.

Once again, the Sheep and the Goats scripture in Mathew is very, very clear. You don't do the works, you go to Hell...period. If that is not a fact, someone needs to explain why Jesus would lie to us there?

Christian Counseling Help said:
It is in the moment, and can be reached if you achieve a certain spiritual level.

We can be as spiritual as we want but faith without works is still dead. So without works to show/prove our faith, we are all talk and no walk. I personally would rather not show up at judgment day with a handful of dead faith.

Christian Counseling Help said:
If you go to church because you fear hell and want to live happily in heaven forever, I think your motivations are wrong and you are missing the entire point.

First, going to church in itself...will not keep one out of Hell, but I think you are saying being Godly just out of fear of Hell is wrong.
Thing is, God was the one that made the threat, and in my view, did so to get our attention, hence it's a perfectly sound reason, at least to get us in the door. Also, as far as I know, if we act as God expects, and even if that remains the only reason we do so...God will still honor his word.

I don't see that happening with many, since if we don't first see it/get it, most come around to see it's about more than just staying out of Hell, but if it did happen...well, you see what I'm saying.

Dan61861 · Jun 24, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Can we live in perpetual/continual, say...10 commandment type sin once saved, without asking forgiveness/repenting, and still go to heaven after we die?

Yes

Each and everyone of us still sin. None of us are righteous, no not one. The Bible says we ourselves are barely saved.

This is what Christianity is all about, Christ has done it for us. We take refuge under His wing. We humble ourselves before Him, as sinners in need of a savior. He is become our righteousness.

Now God forbid any of us do sin, but we come to the knowledge of what we are...we are wretched. As Job said...we are vile. Only through God and His mercy can we be saved.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 · Jun 24, 2017

What repentance is God looking for from us?

2 Timothy 2:25
“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”

What is that truth?
We are sinners.
Christ has died for our sins according to the scriptures.
He was buried.
On the third day He rose from the grave according to the scriptures.

The simplicity of the Gospel is wonderful.
May God be magnified.

In Christ
Daniel

Kenny'sID · Jun 24, 2017

Dan61861 said:
This is what Christianity is all about, Christ has done it for us.

Nope, Christianity is not about doing as we wish, it's about buckling down and making an effort not to live in sin.. I was always raised with the general idea, you're good you go to heaven, your bad and you don't, and think I'll stick with those basics.

Along with a few other expectations from God, it's still just about that simple. This junk that's being introduced now days is the Devils way of fooling those who want their way instead of Gods way into believing we can all take the wide road and still make it as opposed to scripture. The very idea does away with the narrow way scripture completely, and when a doctrine does that...not good.

I mean he's not really fooling them, it's what they want anyway, he just makes it easier to justify.

If that's what they want, up to them, but to teach it to others? Very bad idea IMO. I'd be scared to death to even teach it.

Speaking of which, let me ask you. First read or brush up on this:

The Narrow Gate
12In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. 13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.

First question- What is your understanding of that? What is it attempting to teach?

Second question? Are you still telling me we can take either the wide or the narrow way and get to heaven, and all we need do is say we have accepted Christ because he has "done it for us"?

3rd And if so, why then would Jesus lie to us and tell us to take the narrow way, because the other way leads to destruction?

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2017

Thedictator said:
No it was your side that coopted the Phrase and changed the meaning. Christians have Eternal Security from all outside forces, but if a Christian walks away from God, stops having faith in Jesus Christ, or goes back to living in the world or darkness he has reject salvation and the salvation he once had is no longer there.

In regards to the origin of the term "Eternal Security": Whether that is true or not, it makes no difference in regards to how we should be careful to use terms or words that people are already familiar with. Today, the word "gay" has a different meaning than it did back in the day when my parents were growing up. It used to mean "happy" but now it means something else. Surely you do not use the word "gay" like they did back in the day. You don't want to confuse people. Why should it be any different with the term "Eternal Security"?

...

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2017

RayJeena said:
Those who seek the assurance of permanent salvation aren’t looking for a license to sin 24/7 – that’s a very worn-out straw-man.

What the assurance of set-in-stone salvation does is to keep one’s walk with the Lord from feeling like a tightrope walk across a flaming chasm where even the slightest misstep sends them hurling into the abyss for all eternity. And believe me, depending which denominational teachings one goes by, it doesn’t take much for one to be gloriously saved one minute and hell’s future firewood the next.

This is God (who is Love) we’re talking about, not some curmudgeonly, vengeful mother-in-law.

If a law was passed that said there is no more speed limit on the highways, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drive faster and get into car accidents. It is human nature to do the wrong thing, unless of course they allow God to transform their minds and hearts so as not to justify sin or wrong doing. See, when a person says that God saves Hitler, Ted Bundy, etc. they are eliminating a standard of morality. Evil gets rewarded (instead of being punished) and it makes a mockery out of those who do good.

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S.O.J.I.A. · Jun 25, 2017

direction not perfection.

no double message there.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2017

THE W said:
direction not perfection.

no double message there.

But Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Bible tells us to be perfect in other places using the word "perfect" and other related synonyms.

Anyways, the two fold message of Eternal Security is a real problem. It sometimes hides it's true message. This message is the same by the devil in the Garden of Eden when he said to Eve, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4). This is in regards to breaking God's Command or Law. Today, people are being told the same lie by the devil. The one message of Eternal Security is that you can sin and still be saved on some level. Yet, it seeks to sometimes cloak or hide this message by saying we will be also more Christ like (When that is simply not true). For to teach people they can minimize sin and expect that to result in good fruit is preposterous.

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ToBeLoved · Jun 25, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Show me where in the Sheep/goats scripture, the goats did any good works? Or are you just flat out making things up now? But again, that's fine keep it up, it's good to let others see how you work.

Anyway, please answer the question this time.

The goats are the unsaved so they cannot please God because they don't have Christ.

So why you are even using goats or the unsaved at all in a conversation about salvation shows you don't understand the scripture at all.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2017

Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

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ToBeLoved · Jun 25, 2017

Jason0047 said:
But Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Bible tells us to be perfect in other places using the word "perfect" and other related synonyms.

Anyways, the two fold message of Eternal Security is a real problem. It sometimes hides it's true message. This message is the same by the devil in the Garden of Eden when he said to Eve, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4). This is in regards to breaking God's Command or Law. Today, people are being told the same lie by the devil. The one message of Eternal Security is that you can sin and still be saved on some level. Yet, it seeks to sometimes cloak or hide this message by saying we will be also more Christ like (When that is simply not true). For to teach people they can minimize sin and expect that to result in good fruit is preposterous.

...

Are you perfect Jason?

If not, what does this verse have to do with eternal security at all?

You are using it to place confusion.

ToBeLoved · Jun 25, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

...

What does this have to do with eternal security?

I'll help. It doesn't. You don't even know the points of eternal security because you don't care to debate real points.

You only want to post your opinion and verses unrelated to eternal security, your own doctrine. Not debate any points of eternal security.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2017

What words of Jesus could a person speak against (as in reference to 1 Timothy 6:3-4)?

Well, I heard certain believers tell me that Jesus did not really mean what he said in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 6:15, and Luke 9:26; Or they said that His words have another meaning in those verses I don't understand.

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Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2017

To all:

It does not matter if nobody on the planet currently is living perfectly before God. The whole world was destroyed for living wickedly by a global flood and yet Noah and his family were spared. Why? Well, Noah was a preacher of righteousness. So he was distinct and different from the rest of the world.

So believers cannot walk by sight but they have to walk by faith. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says there are those who have a form of Godliness but they deny the power thereof. Now, if one is reading this, they need to ask themselves, "Do I have a form of Godliness as described in 2 Timothy 3:1-9?"

I would be very careful not to play games with my soul. So I would ensure I would be the farthest thing from that; And it starts with what kind of gospel message are we preaching.

Are we making people think we can sin and still be saved or are we leading people to walk in the Lord's good ways?

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Rajni · Jun 25, 2017

Jason0047 said:

It is human nature to do the wrong thing, unless of course they allow God to transform their minds and hearts so as not to justify sin or wrong doing. See, when a person says that God saves Hitler, Ted Bundy, etc. they are eliminating a standard of morality. Evil gets rewarded (instead of being punished) and it makes a mockery out of those who do good.

Click to expand...

Well that’s just it. A person said to be "dead in their transgressions" logically couldn't do squat until God transforms them.

I probably should clear something up, here.

When I speak of God saving someone, I’m not saying that this means they remain in their fallen state as they waltz through the Pearly Gates and crash the heavenly cocktail party.

Nevertheless, in these kinds of discussions, Godwin’s Law prevails, and people start expressing concerns that Hitler, Bundy, and the like are all running around Heaven being the exact same troublemakers they were before.

That is most definitely not what I’m saying.

Evil doesn’t get rewarded, it gets destroyed. Does that involve punishment? It might. Frankly, just being evil is itself a punishment; such people’s lives are a living hell already, obviously. So, I’m not sure how expecting God to pile on more hell in the afterlife, and for all eternity no less, is supposed to fix that.

When someone beats a rug, they’re doing it to get the dirt out, not just for the sake of beating the rug. Same with God addressing the flaws in the human being. It’s the wicked/sin (the dust and dirt) that He’s trying to get out of the person (the rug), and He can do that while preserving the individual person (the rug). The person (the rug) isn't the problem, it's the dust and dirt inside that's the issue. God doesn’t need to throw the baby out with bathwater.

As far as the Hitlers, Neros, and Bundies of this world, like I said before, Paul referred to himself as the worst of sinners (and we are asked to believe that he spoke under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who would have foreseen future Hitlers, Neros, and Bundies, yet apparently still directed Paul to declare himself The Worst of Sinners, even over those guys).

Therefore, if Paul can be salvaged, anyone can, apparently, including whatever Villain of the Month anyone here wants to come up with.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 25, 2017

RayJeena said:
Well that’s just it. A person said to be "dead in their transgressions" logically couldn't do squat until God transforms them.

I probably should clear something up, here.

When I speak of God saving someone, I’m not saying that this means they remain in their fallen state as they waltz through the Pearly Gates and crash the heavenly cocktail party.

Nevertheless, in these kinds of discussions, Godwin’s Law prevails, and people start expressing concerns that Hitler, Bundy, and the like are all running around Heaven being the exact same troublemakers they were before.

That is most definitely not what I’m saying.

Evil doesn’t get rewarded, it gets destroyed. Does that involve punishment? It might. Frankly, just being evil is itself a punishment; such people’s lives are a living hell already, obviously. So, I’m not sure how expecting God to pile on more hell in the afterlife, and for all eternity no less, is supposed to fix that.

When someone beats a rug, they’re doing it to get the dirt out, not just for the sake of beating the rug. Same with God addressing the flaws in the human being. It’s the wicked/sin (the dust and dirt) that He’s trying to get out of the person (the rug), and He can do that while preserving the individual person (the rug). The person (the rug) isn't the problem, it's the dust and dirt inside that's the issue. God doesn’t need to throw the baby out with bathwater.

As far as the Hitlers, Neros, and Bundies of this world, like I said before, Paul referred to himself as the worst of sinners (and we are asked to believe that he spoke under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who would have foreseen future Hitlers, Neros, and Bundies, yet apparently still directed Paul to declare himself The Worst of Sinners, even over those guys).

Therefore, if Paul can be salvaged, anyone can, apparently, including whatever Villain of the Month anyone here wants to come up with.

I am not saying the worst murderer cannot be forgiven but they have to repent. I believe the wicked will be erased or destroyed from existence. They will not be in Heaven if they don't repent.

...

Kenny'sID · Jun 25, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
The goats are the unsaved so they cannot please God because they don't have Christ.

So why you are even using goats or the unsaved at all in a conversation about salvation shows you don't understand the scripture at all.

Sound like the Atheists as they try to convince me of evolution, "you just don't understand science"

First, just the question you pose is odd. 1)Why would I not use unsaved in a conversation about being saved in order to explain how we are and aren't? Why is that so odd, it fits perfectly with the opposing side I represent here? Or is it you just don't want to hear scripture that does a good job at making my point?

Sure, they were unsaved, Jesus gave the exact reason why, and was very clear about it. Just like many, they clearly thought they were saved, as in the "But Jesus, what are you talking about" type questioning. He was there to tell them why they were unsaved and why the others were.

2)Is that what you mean? 3)If not please explain what you mean? 4)And since I've explained why I think the situation was as I say it is, please explain what tips us off it's the way you say it is? I mean I assume you have reason to believe as you do.

Actually I'm a little baffled you would actually try to confuse something so obvious, so please answer me this as well....5)Did Jesus cast the Goats into outer darkness instead of sending them to Heaven, because they did not take care of the poor, or not?

I numbered 5 questions there for your convenience...skipped a few for the same reason.

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