The Double Message of Eternal Security.

1stcenturylady said:

What you don't understand is the law aroused sin in us. But through Christ we are dead to sin. Why because he has made us new creatures through the Holy Spirit. Being dead to sin is WHY we are freed from the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ is our new nature that is NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit is in us, for the flesh cannot please God.

Thou shalt not kill? Love prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not steal? Self-control prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not commit adultery? Faithfulness prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not covet? Peace and contentment prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not lie? Kindness prevents that in your new nature. Honor your parents? Longsuffering and gentleness takes care of them for as long as they live. Believing in the name of Jesus Christ? Joy unspeakable!

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I don't understand the law arouses sin in us????
For your own sake, please don't make such statements you know to be untrue!
You may be dead to the desire to live a sinfull lifestyle, but you are not dead to actually committing sin are you.
You still bear false witness and refuse to apologise when you do.
Don't just make pat statements based on the literal letter. Seek understanding of the message contained in the letter.
I'm not calling you a pharisee, but that was their mistake wasn't it

stuart lawrence said:

I don't understand the law arouses sin in us????
For your own sake, please don't make such statements you know to be untrue!
You may be dead to the desire to live a sinfull lifestyle, but you are not dead to actually committing sin are you.
You still bear false witness and refuse to apologise when you do.
Don't just make pat statements based on the literal letter. Seek understanding of the message contained in the letter.
I'm not calling you a pharisee, but that was their mistake wasn't it

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I thought Romans 7 and 1 John 1:8 were some of the scriptures you live your life by?

Romans 7:8 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire.

Sin and the commandment worked together to arouse all manner of evil desire.

1stcenturylady said:

I thought Romans 7 and 1 John 1:8 were some of the scriptures you live your life by?

Romans 7:8 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire.

Sin and the commandment worked together to arouse all manner of evil desire.

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If I live by rom7:8, I must know a righteousness of observing the law arouses sinful passions in us mustn't I.so why would you then state that is something I don't understand?
And why would you state that when many times i have explained to you the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it?
Please try to write honest posts, based on what you know I have stated

stuart lawrence said:

If I live by rom7:8, I must know a righteousness of observing the law arouses sinful passions in us mustn't I.so why would you then state that is something I don't understand?
And why would you state that when many times i have explained to you the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it?
Please try to write honest posts, based on what you know I have stated

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You are being provoking again. Have a nice life.

1stcenturylady said:

You are being provoking again. Have a nice life.

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No, I have been absolutely honest. You are fully aware I have many times told you sin, through the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it.
So for you to claim i don't understand that, when you know I have countless times stated it, is, another lie I am afraid

1stcenturylady said:

What you don't understand is the law aroused sin in us. But through Christ we are dead to sin. Why because he has made us new creatures through the Holy Spirit. Being dead to sin is WHY we are freed from the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ is our new nature that is NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit is in us, for the flesh cannot please God.

Thou shalt not kill? Love prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not steal? Self-control prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not commit adultery? Faithfulness prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not covet? Peace and contentment prevents that in your new nature. Thou shalt not lie? Kindness prevents that in your new nature. Honor your parents? Longsuffering and gentleness takes care of them for as long as they live. Believing in the name of Jesus Christ? Joy unspeakable!

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Yup. People before Moses (OC) knew certain things were wrong, but God has not defined sin until the Old Covenant Law.

The Law showed us all NO ONE is righteous before a holy God.

The Law declares us all guilty. That is its power. In Christ,, we have His righteous. Not our own, but Christ's.

I will give istcenturylady the benefit of the doubt. She appears to not understand how I can believe the law of the TC is in our hearts, if at the same time I believe the law arouses sinfull passions in us if we live under it.
I will once again explain. It is the attached penalty to the law that causes sinfull passions to be aroused in you if you live under it, NOT what the law actually states. As icl agrees, if you tell someone they will be condemned to hell if they think if a pink rabbit. They will immediately start thinking of pink bunnies. But that statement is made null and void if there is no law WITH an attached penalty for transgressing it.
The very moment the law is placed in your heart, you have a saviour from your sin, your penalty has been paid: Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.
With the penalty paid, the law of righteousness ceases to exist, and therefore, so does sins true power, which arouses sinfull passions in you through the law if you live under it

stuart lawrence said:

When people preach: if you commit any sin you cannot be born again/ saved, they are guilty of believing as the Pharisees of Jesus day did. As sin is transgression if the law, they are really preaching: faultlessly observe the law of you will be condemned.
The Pharisees who preached this in Jesus day neglected the love of God( luke11:42) for there is no love, mercy or compassion in such a message. Indeed, no loving parent would treat their child so cruelly if they transgressed their rules. But some today proclaim this warped gospel message. And as did the Pharisees, they even quote the letter of scripture to do it.
Jesus said of such people.
They were hypocrites
They were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean in the Inside.
They loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
They cleaned the outside if the cup, but not the inside.
Prostitutes and tax collectors would enter heaven ahead of them
They neglected the love of God, and their neighbour. For they crushed their neighbour with demands they did not themselves attain to.
Likewise, people today who say if you commit sin you cannot be born again sin daily themselves, as is evident to see, even on these websites.
What applied to the Pharisees then, applies to everyone now, who, in reality preaches the same message they did 2000 years ago

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Exactly.

They are the Pharisee's of today. The Law people.

There's nothing wrong with the good and Holy laws of God, they are perfect, holy, righteous and good. The problem was the attached penalty that condemned man under a law of sin and death. Remove the penalty and you are free!!!!
And you don't even look to the law in your heart to live in accordance with it, you look to Christ and the fruits of the Spirit then grow in you. And against that fruit THEIR IS NO LAW gal5:23

Our sinful passions are exposed by the Law, the Law has brought are sin to the surface. We can no longer say, I didn't know. Our wretchedness is identified by the Law. Hopefully humbling us before God.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

Our sinful passions are exposed by the Law, the Law has brought are sin to the surface. We can no longer say, I didn't know. Our wretchedness is identified by the Law. Hopefully humbling us before God.

In Christ
Daniel

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I agree with the above, but could I add.

I have a grandson. His name is Tyler. We get on really well. But when he reached the age of two we had some problems( we call it the terrible twos in England)
When
Tyler came to our home, I gave him some simple rules, or put him under my laws if you like. I had a computer room, and I asked him not to touch the television, computer or telephone in that room. What was the result of me putting Tyler under my rules/laws? If he could sneak away without being seen, I inevitably found him in the computer room, touching one of the things I had asked him not to touch. And sometimes, his mother would put him on a naughty chair due to his disobedience. However, that didn't stop him disobeying! So the agreement( or covenant) we had didn't seem to produce the desired result. By me giving Tyler rules, that sometimes resulted in punishment if he broke them, it Simply stirred up excitement in him to break the rules.
If I had not given him those rules in the first place, he would inevitably at times have been drawn to the television, telephone and computer, but the allure to do so would not have been so great.
But what if Tyler could have been born again if you like. And this time he was born instinctively knowing my rules, and in his heart he wanted to obey them. If that was the case, I wouldn't have to give him my rules would I, he already knows them and in his heart wants to obey them. However, no matter how much he wanted to obey, as he is only a child I understand he would not perfectly obey, children don't do they. But when he did slip up, I wouldn't have to threaten him with a punishment, for he will feel bad, having gone against what is in his heart.
Now if Tyler could have been born again in that way, we would have a much better agreement/ covenant wouldn't we! By me not having to give him my rules, what stirredup the excitement in him to break them in the first place would have been removed. I get a much better behaved grandson!
But alas, he couldn't be born again in that regard, so the status quo had to continue

stuart lawrence said:

I agree with the above, but could I add.

I have a grandson. His name is Tyler. We get on really well. But when he reached the age of two we had some problems( we call it the terrible twos in England)
When
Tyler came to our home, I gave him some simple rules, or put him under my laws if you like. I had a computer room, and I asked him not to touch the television, computer or telephone in that room. What was the result of me putting Tyler under my rules/laws? If he could sneak away without being seen, I inevitably found him in the computer room, touching one of the things I had asked him not to touch. And sometimes, his mother would put him on a naughty chair due to his disobedience. However, that didn't stop him disobeying! So the agreement( or covenant) we had didn't seem to produce the desired result. By me giving Tyler rules, that sometimes resulted in punishment if he broke them, it Simply stirred up excitement in him to break the rules.
If I had not given him those rules in the first place, he would inevitably at times have been drawn to the television, telephone and computer, but the allure to do so would not have been so great.
But what if Tyler could have been born again if you like. And this time he was born instinctively knowing my rules, and in his heart he wanted to obey them. If that was the case, I wouldn't have to give him my rules would I, he already knows them and in his heart wants to obey them. However, no matter how much he wanted to obey, as he is only a child I understand he would not perfectly obey, children don't do they. But when he did slip up, I wouldn't have to threaten him with a punishment, for he will feel bad, having gone against what is in his heart.
Now if Tyler could have been born again in that way, we would have a much better agreement/ covenant wouldn't we! By me not having to give him my rules, what stirredup the excitement in him to break them in the first place would have been removed. I get a much better behaved grandson!
But alas, he couldn't be born again in that regard, so the status quo had to continue

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I do understand what you are saying. The desire to disobey wasn't caused by your rules though. The desire to disobey is already in us, your rule exposed that desire. Sin was before the Law, the Law doesn't give us a passion to sin. It exposes the sin. Btw, we call it the terrible twos as well.

When I was a young and coming of age. I didn't know the Law. I didn't know lust was a sin. Thinking of a girl in that manner came natural. If fact I believed it was natural. I did know covet, but I didn't know covet in this way. Although, deep within, I knew it was wrong. When I became a Christian, I learned how lustful it truly was. The commandment thou shalt not covet exposed my lustful desires. It brought what was already in me to the forefront. Thou shalt not covet didn't bring me to want to covet women more. It did bring me to the knowledge of my own wretchedness.

Just like your grandson, the rule didn't make him want to do it. The rule exposed the desires he already had, bringing them to the forefront.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

I do understand what you are saying. The desire to disobey wasn't caused by your rules though. The desire to disobey is already in us, your rule exposed that desire. Sin was before the Law, the Law doesn't give us a passion to sin. It exposes the sin. Btw, we call it the terrible twos as well.

When I was a young and coming of age. I didn't know the Law. I didn't know lust was a sin. Thinking of a girl in that manner came natural. If fact I believed it was natural. I did know covet, but I didn't know covet in this way. Although, deep within, I knew it was wrong. When I became a Christian, I learned how lustful it truly was. The commandment thou shalt not covet exposed my lustful desires. It brought what was already in me to the forefront. Thou shalt not covet didn't bring me to want to covet women more. It did bring me to the knowledge of my own wretchedness.

Just like your grandson, the rule didn't make him want to do it. The rule exposed the desires he already had, bringing them to the forefront.

In Christ
Daniel

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For when we were controlled by the sinfull nature, the sinfull passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death
Rom7:5
For I would not have known lust, except the law has said: thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom7:7

Was then that which is good made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good, that sin, by the commandment might become exceeding sinful
Rom7:13

This is one of the few times we must agree to disagree, as normally we completely agree

If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten cent stake, he might oblige, but he would be bored. There wouldn't be any excitement in the game for him. The stake is too small. If however, he was playing in a game in Las Vegas the following week and there was a million dollars on the table, he would be greatly excited then wouldn't he? The stake would have his heart pounding I am sure. It isn't possible to do anything that involves high stakes without huge excitement being stirred up in the individual is it?
Some partake of sports with an element of risk, or danger in them, so they might experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from a great height, with a rope tied to the bridge at one end and tied round their body at the other. . They hurtle through the air, hundreds if feet until they come to a juddering halt, dangling in the air, thrilled by the excitement of the event.
So it is fair to say, the higher the stake a person plays for, the more excitement stirred in them. The greater the risk involved in an activity, the more the adrenalin flows.
But there is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to playing for high stakes and taking great risks, and that is where eternal life is concerned. For what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry greater risk than one which could send you to hell. So if anyone knows of excitement being stirred in them, it is the person if faith, for they are playing for the highest stake of all, and it isn't a game!
So what does the excitement focus on in this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.
Suppose a believer considered obeying the TC decided the outcome of this highest of all stakes battle, and they were in earnest about it!

Before them stands: Thou shalt not covet. If the believer covets they can lose this highest of all stakes battle, and if they covet they take the risk of being condemned to hell. The excitement stirred in them would go off the Richter scale, every time they thought of coveting/ lust

stuart lawrence said:

For when we were controlled by the sinfull nature, the sinfull passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death
Rom7:5
For I would not have known lust, except the law has said: thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom7:7

Was then that which is good made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good, that sin, by the commandment might become exceeding sinful
Rom7:13

This is one of the few times we must agree to disagree, as normally we completely agree

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This is why, it is Christ that makes us brothers. My wife and I disagree, we are still brother and sister in Christ. Even though she is wrong...haha.

Was then that which is good made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good, that sin, by the commandment might become exceeding sinful
Rom7:13

Wouldn't you say, verse 13 is wrapping up the thought? To me, it is saying, by the commandment sin is being brought forward and exposing to me my wretchedness.

If I say to you, thou shalt not lie. Does that make us want to lie?
If I say to you, thou shalt not lie. When you do lie, it convicts you...it exposes you. It exposes the sin that is within you.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

This is why, it is Christ that makes us brothers. My wife and I disagree, we are still brother and sister in Christ. Even though she is wrong...haha.

Was then that which is good made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good, that sin, by the commandment might become exceeding sinful
Rom7:13

Wouldn't you say, verse 13 is wrapping up the thought? To me, it is saying, by the commandment sin is being brought forward and exposing to me my wretchedness.

If I say to you, thou shalt not lie. Does that make us want to lie?
If I say to you, thou shalt not lie. When you do lie, it convicts you...it exposes you. It exposes the sin that is within you.

In Christ
Daniel

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You disagree with your wife?
I learnt the only way to have a peaceful marriage was to nod my head when spoken to!

Stuart, seriously look at this sentence.

What you don't understand is the law aroused sin in us.

Who's fault is sin? What is the cause of sin?

In Christ
Daniel

stuart lawrence said:

You disagree with your wife?
I learnt the only way to have a peaceful marriage was to nod my head when spoken to!

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Hey, I am the boss...she said so.

Dan61861 said:

Stuart, seriously look at this sentence.

What you don't understand is the law aroused sin in us.

Who's fault is sin? What is the cause of sin?

In Christ
Daniel

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Did you read post 2342?

Eternal security means that a person who maintains faith cannot lose their salvation- but the meaning is also not the key point.

The key point of it is that if you fall from grace, you were never actually in grace to begin with. It's a message of predestination and God's sovereign election.

The doctrine directly opposes the notion that a person can fall in and out of grace, which is something the Catholic Church professes.