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The Donation of Constantine!

davidoffinland

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It was purported that a legal document called "Donation of Constantine" in which Constantine bestowed on Sylvester, the bishop of Rome (314-335) transferring to him his power, authority and the palace to the bishop of Rome. In short, granting the bishop his property and investing him with great spiritual power, and later civil power.

It is said that this document is a forgery because Constantine was made to speak 8th Ct Latin though he lived in the early 4th Ct. Also it was said that during these centuries Rome inserted in it her codes that no one was permitted to question its genuineness and those who refused to believe in it were burned.

Read it for yourself at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

Or, google for more information.

In Him, david.
 

Metanoia02

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What's the point? The Catholic Church recognizes it as a forgery and it has no impact on the Church or what it teaches. The rest is just "it was said" without any proof.
 
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Rick Otto

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The point is obviously to display corruption, and inform the public of it.
The fact it has no impact on that organization is testimony to that organization's indifference to reality and imperviousness to what should be shocking revelations.
It also gives analytical clarity to the ambiguities in the terms "catholic" & and "church", for if any one denomination was truly catholic (universal), there would be no need or desire for other denominations.
Indeed, the qualifying adjective "Roman" is apt, with all the imperious character imlications it evokes.
Thanks for asking, I wasn't going to respond to the O.P., but you inspired me.
 
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Metanoia02

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Why is this such a big deal. The Church did not us it as any source of authority for what it did. Pepin the Short when he did legitimately give some these lands to the Pope never refered to this document as an authority. Why does this prove corruption beyond forgery? Is all of Christianity corrupt by virtue of the existence of the Gnostic Gospels?
 
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Rick Otto

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"Why is this such a big deal. The Church did not us it as any source of authority for what it did. Pepin the Short when he did legitimately give some these lands to the Pope never refered to this document as an authority."

>When is forgery not a big deal?
Who DID refer to it as an authority?
Why did it exist?
Who would benefit from it?

"Why does this prove corruption beyond forgery?"
>Who said it did? Are you implying forgery should be overlooked?

"Is all of Christianity corrupt by virtue of the existence of the Gnostic Gospels?"
> Is all of truth corrupted by the existence of one lie?

No, of course not, and neither is the true God, or His true Church corrupted by any self-appointed substitutes.

Perhaps you "protesteth" too much?
 
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Metanoia02

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There is no evidence of authorship of the forgery, so you can blame the Church for this "crime". The Church did not benefit from it, becuase it was never used as an authority to prove any claim it had.
 
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Rick Otto

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Where is ANYone blamed?
I simply asked who WOULD do it & why?
If by "the Church" didn't benefit from it, I suppose you to mean the Catholic Church, and by "benefit" & "use an authority", you mean "officialy", I have, & you offer no proof of this, not to imply it's false, but to imply that it might be arguable.

So whoya think "dunnit"?
And why?
 
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Metanoia02

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I don't care who did it. It is a forgery which was never used by the Church to assert any claim of property or power.

You claimed that it indicates corruption. I only ask you prove that. Since you can't prove who did the forgery or show how the Church benefited from this forgery, what is your point. This is a tactic to discredit the Catholic Church which is based on assumption and not fact.
 
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Rick Otto

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Forgery IS corruption, and unless it is on the level of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, we follow "the money". At the time of the forgery, who would've benifitted from authoring is circumstantial evidence.
Again, you use the term "Church" with ambiguity.

I kind of doubt that the forgery was a tactic to discredit, but I could be wrong. Looks like an attempt to illegitamitely GIVE credit.

If you mean POINTING OUT the forgery is a "tactic", You still MIGHT be right as far as the O.P. author's intention, but he doesn't clearly state that, does he? Perhaps you too are making assumptions not based on fact.

However, you are clearly convinced, since you offer no "In my opinion", or qualify with "might" be a tactic, so without proof of authorship, & no offered proof that what the link says is false("This document was used by medieval popes to bolster their claims for territorial and secular power in Italy") by you, I might consider your statement a "tactic" to discredit the Wiki.

What's your point?
To defend the defenseless?
 
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Metanoia02

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Unless some evidence is presented to back up accusations, thisis pointless. I have still yet to find any benefit of your participation other then taking shots at the Catholic Church. But if that is the way you get your kicks, enjoy yourself.
 
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Rick Otto

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"Unless some evidence is presented to back up accusations, this is pointless."
You agreed yourself it's a forgery.


" I have still yet to find any benefit of your participation other then taking shots at the Catholic Church."

Are you flaming me?
Where did I, or for that matter, anyone else "take a shot" at the Roman Catholic Church?

"But if that is the way you get your kicks, enjoy yourself."

"Get your kicks"?

You definitely need to calm down.
Do I need to call security?
 
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davidoffinland

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[quote

It is said that this document is a forgery because Constantine was made to speak 8th Ct Latin though he lived in the early 4th Ct. Also it was said that during these centuries Rome inserted in it her codes that no one was permitted to question its genuineness and those who refused to believe in it were burned.

From Finland.

It was said above about taking "pot-shots" at the Catholic Church. Why shouldn´t we ask... when organize religion would use "fear" techniques to control (like the above)? And question any doctrine that may be way-out-of-line with Scripture?

In Him, david.
 
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Metanoia02

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Because without proof of what you say, it is considered slander. That is a sin. Please prove that anyone was burned at the stake for questioning this document. If you can't please stop making the accusations.
 
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davidoffinland

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Metanioa02...What kind of proof do you need? What about the reading of history. One such site is:

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/history_new.htm

Site is about persecutions in Italy, France, the Inquisition and in England. There was one man that I met in Israel and said with conviction, "I want proof that Moses crossed the Red Sea!" Some one in the group popped-up and said, "What...do you want to see his foot-prints in the sand!" He said, "Yes!"

Anti-semitics may say that the Holocaust never existed even though the proof of the camps are still around. Even though there may not be proof of bodies and bones around what happens 1000 yrs ago or so, the blood of its victims are still written in history.

In Him, david.
 
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Metanoia02

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What does this have to do with the Donation of Constantine? You claimed people were killed becuase they disagreed with it. I only ask for proof.

If you want to drag every thing the did 500 years ago be prepared to answer for the sins of the Protestant of the same time period that were just violent as you accuse the Catholic Church of doing.
 
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BereanBeacon

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"In the middle of the ninth century, a radical change began in the WesternChurch, which dramatically altered the Constitution of the Church, and laid the ground work for the full development of the papacy. The papacy could never have emerged without a fundamental restructuring of the Constitution of the Church and of men’s perceptions of the history of that Constitution. As long as the true facts of Church history were well known, it would serve as a buffer against any unlawful ambitions. However, in the 9th century, a literary forgery occurred which completely revolutionized the ancient government of the Church in the West. It provided a legal foundation for the ascendancy of the papacy in Western Christendom. This forgery is known as the Pseudo–Isidorian Decretals, written around 845 A.D. The Decretals are a complete fabrication of Church history. They set forth precedents for the exercise of sovereign authority of the popes over the universal Church prior to the fourth century and make it appear that the popes had always exercised sovereign dominion and had ultimate authority even over Church Councils. Nicholas I (858–867) was the first to use them as the basis for advancing his claims of authority. But it was not until the 11th century with Pope Gregory VII that the these decretals were used in a significant way to alter the government of the WesternChurch. It was at this time that the Decretals were combined with two other major forgeries, The Donation of Constantine and the Liber Pontificalis, along with other falsified writings, and codified into a system of Church law which elevated Gregory and all his successors as absolute monarchs over the Church in the West. These writings were then utilized by Gratian in composing his Decretum. The Decretum, which was first published in 1151 A.D., was intended as a collection of everything that Gratian could find which could give historical precedent to the teaching of papal primacy, and therefore the authority of tradition, which could then carry the force of law in the Church. It had such success that it became the standard work of the law of the Roman Church and thus the basis of all canon law and Scholastic theology. Some Roman Catholic apologists claim that though there were forgeries in the Church, these really had very little impact upon the advancement and development of the papacy, since it was already an established reality by the time the forgeries appeared. Karl Keating, for example, states that practically all the commentators, with the exception of fundamentalists, agree with this assessment. But this is completely false. The historical facts reveal that the papacy was never a reality as far as the universal Church is concerned. There are many eminent Roman Catholic historians who have testified to that fact as well as to the importance of the forgeries, especially those of Pseudo-Isidore. One such historian is Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger. He was the most renowned Roman Catholic historian of the last century, who taught Church history for 47 years as a Roman Catholic. He makes these important comments:

In the middle of the ninth century—about 845—there arose the huge fabrication of the Isidorian decretals...About a hundred pretended decrees of the earliest Popes, together with certain spurious writings of other Church dignitaries and acts of Synods, were then fabricated in the west of Gaul, and eagerly seized upon Pope Nicholas I at Rome, to be used as genuine documents in support of the new claims put forward by himself and his successors.

That the pseudo–Isidorian principles eventually revolutionized the whole constitution of the Church, and introduced a new system in place of the old—on that point there can be no controversy among candid historians.

The most potent instrument of the new Papal system was Gratian’s Decretum, which issued about the middle of the twelfth century from the first school of Law in Europe, the juristic teacher of the whole of Western Christendom, Bologna. In this work the Isidorian forgeries were combined with those of the other Gregorian (Gregory VII) writers...and with Gratia’s own additions. His work displaced all the older collections of canon law, and became the manual and repertory, not for canonists only, but for the scholastic theologians, who, for the most part, derived all their knowledge of Fathers and Councils from it. No book has ever come near it in its influence in the Church, although there is scarcely another so chokeful of gross errors, both intentional and unintentional (Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger, The Pope and the Council (Boston: Roberts, 1870), pp. 76-77, 79, 115-116).

Von Döllinger elaborates on the far reaching influence of these forgeries, especially in their association with the authority of Aquinas, on succeeding generations of theologians and their extensive use as a defense of the papacy:

In theology, from the beginning of the fourteenth century, the spurious passages of St. Cyril and forged canons of Councils maintained their ground, being guaranteed against all suspicion by the authority of St. Thomas. Since the work of Trionfo in 1320, up to 1450, it is remarkable that no single new work appeared in the interests of the Papal system. But then the contest between the Council of Basle and Pope Eugenius IV evoked the work of Cardinal Torquemada, besides some others of less importance. Torquemada’s argument, which was held up to the time of Bellarmine to be the most conslusive apology of the Papal system, rests entirely on fabrications later than the pseudo-Isidore, and chiefly on the spurious passages of St. Cyril. To ignore the authority of St. Thomas is, according to the Cardinal, bad enough, but to slight the testimony of St. Cyril is intolerable. The Pope is infallible; all authority of other bishops is borrowed or derived frorn his. Decisions of Councils without his assent are null and void. These fundamental principles of Torquemada are proved by spurious passages of Anacletus, Clement, the Council of Chalcedon, St. Cyril, and a mass of forged or adulterated testimonies. In the times of Leo X and Clement III, the Cardinals Thomas of Vio, or Cajetan, and Jacobazzi, followed closely in his footsteps. Melchior Canus built firmly on the authority of Cyril, attested by St. Thomas, and so did Bellarmine and the Jesuits who followed him. Those who wish to get a bird’s–eye view of the extent to which the genuine tradition of Church authority was still overlaid and obliterated by the rubbish of later inventions and forgeries about 1563, when the Loci of Canus appeared, must read the fifth book of his work. It is indeed still worse fifty years later in this part of Bellarmine’s work. The difference is that Canus was honest in his belief, which cannot be said of Bellarmine.

The Dominicans, Nicolai, Le Quien, Quetif, and Echard, were the first to avow openly that their master St. Thomas, had been deceived by an imposter, and had in turn misled the whole tribe of theologians and canonists who followed him. On the one hand, the Jesuits, including even such a scholar as Labbe, while giving up the pseudo–Isidorian decretals, manifested their resolve to still cling to St. Cyril. In Italy, as late as 1713, Professor Andruzzi of Bologna cited the most important of the interpolations of St. Cyril as a conclusive argument in his controversial treatise against the patriarch Dositheus (Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger, The Pope and the Council (Boston: Roberts, 1870), pp. 233-234).

The authority claims of Roman Catholicism ultimately devolve upon the institution of the papacy. The papacy is the center and source from which all authority flows for Roman Catholicism. Rome has long claimed that this institution was established by Christ and has been in force in the Church from the very beginning. But the historical record gives a very different picture. This institution was promoted primarily through the falsification of historical fact through the extensive use of forgeries as Thomas Aquinas' apologetic for the papacy demonstrates. Forgery is its foundation. As an institution it was a much later development in Church history, beginning with the Gregorian reforms of pope Gregory VII in the 11th century and was restricted completely to the West. The Eastern Chruch never accepted the false claims of the Roman Church and refused to submit to its insistence that the Bishop of Rome was supreme ruler of the Church. This they knew was not true to the historical record and was a perversion of the true teaching of Scripture, the papal exegesis of which was not taught by the Church fathers.


See the complete writings at ChristianTruth(dot)com
 
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davidoffinland

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Intimidation...is proof enough and history shows it. In one article recently is said that there was a RC apology for the past sins of its members---but not the sin of the church itself. http://www.religioustolerance.org/pope_apo.htm There was another article from a British newspaper that I read that was similar in thought.

Intimidation against poor and weak souls who are anathemized for not believing in bulls, creeds and doctrines that are not biblical, shows at least, how a christian religion could and can fall or slant in another direction from the roots of New Testament truth. The bottom line is that when "push" gets to be "shove" in the spiritual or civic realm...then see what happens.

In Him, david.
 
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Metanoia02

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The only problem with your assesment is that the Papal primacy was already established before these foregies were ever written. Besides they plagarize legitimate documents from the early Church. The Church doesn't need these forgeries, there are enough legitimate documentation to support its position.

Your article is full of error and I won't spend a lot of time poiting all of them out, but this is an interesting statement:

One such historian is Johann Joseph Ignaz von Döllinger. He was the most renowned Roman Catholic historian of the last century, who taught Church history for 47 years as a Roman Catholic.

I doubt you will find anyone who would agree with this statement. It's fluff. He was a Church dissedent who opposed papal authority.

Also if the subject of the OP is to be believed, why didn't this forgery use the Donation of Constantine as a source document if this was some great conspiracy?
 
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