The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

Michael Collum said:

Theologizing a point not made in the bible to fit your personal theology is kind of what you're at odds with today, so best to start cleaning your own cup first.

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But it is in the Bible:

Hebrews 9:11-15
King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


I have no fear of Hell, because I am in Christ and He has brought about my Eternal Redemption through His vicarious death in my stead.

Those who are not in Christ are still dead in trespasses and sins, and there is a reason why the Doctrine of Hell still bothers them.

Now, would you mind telling me exactly what church it is you go to? I would like to know what denomination it is that teaches Christ's teaching is satanic, and that the Body of Christ can only have confidence in judgment "for any other reason than love being made perfect in you, a love without fear."


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

What has that to do with Christ's teaching itself?

The Lord clearly tells men to fear God (which is just a Bible Basic) because HE has the power to cast into Hell, where He destroys both soul (person) and body.

You have called this a doctrine of Satan.

You have tried to rationalize it and negate the Lord's teaching that men should fear and teach the exact opposite with psycho-babble.




I don't even acknowledge that everyone "in the church" is in the Church.

Believers have been and always will be a minority, and there will always be tares among the wheat.

Again, just a Bible Basic.




It is by looking at the context of all relevant passages, including Matthew 10:28—that a conclusion there is no Hell is rejected.

I have not emphasized certain texts. I have presented the Biblical context.

And I have shown that your charge of "immaturity" is itself a denial of Christ's teaching. Christ is the One that told men they should fear, and specifically the judgment of God in Hell.

You reject that teaching and go so far to call His teaching the doctrine of Satan.

That is spiritual maturity?


God bless.

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P1LGR1M said:

Which means that even brand new Christians are held to a high standard:


Acts 5

King James Version

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.


How do you think He feels about His doctrine being ascribed to Satan?

It is pretty evident that the fear generated by God putting New Christians to death was intentionally instilled for their well-being.

And you call this spiritual immaturity? It seems to me that living contrary to His teachings is evidence of spiritual immaturity.




I agree:


1 John 2
King James Version

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Here is a commandment of Christ:


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


You say men are not to have fear. I'll stick with what He commanded.




I agree.


God bless.

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P1LGR1M said:

It was no different in the First Century, and God gave us Scripture to deal with it.

That is still true of the Body of Christ today.

That you would suggest there is a different Church for today is absurd.

Do you think God was short-sighted? Was not the Hebrew Scriptures sufficient for the latter end of the Old Testament Eras?

Why would it not be today?

This...

Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Is just as relevant today as the day it was spoken.




Let me explain, when we quote a clear statement of Scripture we can speak that with the authority Scripture gives it.

I have the authority to say that your teaching that the Doctrine of Hell is satanic is error based on the fact that the Doctrine of Hell was taught by Christ Himself.

But because you do not recognize the authority of Scripture you feel free to teach the exact opposite.

Now tell me again why Christ is wrong to teach men to fear God because He can cast into Hell and right to teach your doctrine that men should not fear God and Hell?

What exactly is the authority you base that on?


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P1LGR1M said:

So tell me, exactly what kind of "church" do you go to?


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P1LGR1M said:

Sure He does, hence...

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Romans 3:10-18
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Psalm 34:11
Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.


Psalm 103:17
But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;


Probably not going to learn that from a youtube video.


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P1LGR1M said:

So why do you try to negate His teaching?

Why do you teach others that they need not to fear God?


Proverbs 1:28-30
King James Version

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.


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P1LGR1M said:

You mean the One that...


John 16:7-8
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


What exactly is it about judgment that the Comforter brings about conviction when He is ministering to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ?


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P1LGR1M said:

I did, actually, would you like to see it again?




You say God hates discord "the most," and I present other things he hates in the New Testament.

Pretty simple to follow along if you keep the context of the statements in their proper place.


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P1LGR1M said:

I have made it clear that this...


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


...is God's teaching.

Where exactly did I say it was mine?

I have also denied the assertion that this teaching is satanic.


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P1LGR1M said:

That is certainly not my assertion.

Could you show me how you reach this conclusion from this...



...?


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P1LGR1M said:

And most of denominations are in agreement on most issues.

This is a false argument of atheists.

How many of these denominations believe in a literal Hell?

About the same number that believe there is a judgment men need to be saved from.

That is why Christ came.


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P1LGR1M said:

For some, obviously.


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P1LGR1M said:

Isn't that the rally cry of universal salvation?

Don't fear God, everything will work out in the end.

You don't have to believe the Gospel.

You don't have to be born again.

You don't have to fear God.

You don't have to fear being cast into Hell.


And you think I am trying to satisfy itching ears by teaching Christ's Doctrine that they are to fear God because He has the power to not only cast men into Hell but to destroy them in everlasting torment?


You might want to rethink that.


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P1LGR1M said:

Like in the beginning?

You mean the church that Paul wrote harsh rebuke to for being carnal?

The church Peter said would have false teachers creeping in upon her?

The church Christ said He would spew out of His mouth?

You want the church to be like her?


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P1LGR1M said:

The point was you were again using a verse out of context.

Read it again, maybe it will be clearer for you to understand that now that I have pointed it out:

P1LGR1M said: ↑
You really need to learn to distinguish between an eternal context and a temporal context, and—to stop using verses out of context to justify yourself:


1 Corinthians 4
King James Version

1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.


Paul had no doubts about his eternal destiny. Most who are familiar with New Testament teaching know this.

And most are able to distinguish between Paul speaking about his temporal situation as opposed to his salvation in Christ.

This was in response to your statement...


Michael Collum said: ↑

It is also written:

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 1 Corinthians 4:4

So it is not wise to have absolute confidence for any other reason than love being made perfect in you, a love without fear.


You seem to be intent on teaching Christians there is only one reason why they can be confident in judgment: perfect love.

Again, we have many reasons to be confident in our judgment, and using a temporally focused proof text isn't going to change that fact, or the intent in which the Scripture was presented.


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P1LGR1M said:

No, actually—it discredits what you said in the particular statement you made:




Your teaching...




...and your proof text are given in error.

Hebrews shows that our conscience is purged by the Work of Christ.

Pretty simple principle that shows your teaching to be in error.


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P1LGR1M said:

But it is in the Bible:

Hebrews 9:11-15
King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


I have no fear of Hell, because I am in Christ and He has brought about my Eternal Redemption through His vicarious death in my stead.

Those who are not in Christ are still dead in trespasses and sins, and there is a reason why the Doctrine of Hell still bothers them.

Now, would you mind telling me exactly what church it is you go to? I would like to know what denomination it is that teaches Christ's teaching is satanic, and that the Body of Christ can only have confidence in judgment "for any other reason than love being made perfect in you, a love without fear."


God bless.

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Thank you for responding. This conversation will continue going in circles, so I do not think there's much more to add. And I will not reply to the personal questions.

As it is written, a fool is known by a multitude of words. So I will leave it at that, as this amount of words is sufficient.

However, rest assured, I have read all of your posts.

Thanks for the discussion.

Der Alte said:

If it walks like a duck. You said something about bad translations
↑
You were asked by, @P1LGR1M , "Would you mind presenting these bad translations?"
Your response "The quick answer is any Bible containing the word 'hell.'" It walks and quacks like preconceptions to me.
Here is another major faux pas. You reject the historical narratives of the Jews about their own history, beliefs etc. But in your link: [post #78], above, you quote Danish legends as if Moses, himself, carried them down from mount Sinai. That is called eating your cake and having it too.

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One man says "preconceptions" while another has made up his mind by digging and research. You can read about ducks and the way they walk...or you can observe them in the real world and see how they walk.

No, and again you misrepresent what I write, I do NOT reject the "historical narrative of the Jews about their own history, beliefs etc." Likewise, I do not reject the historicity of the the Norse mythology about Hel. What I do reject is the reality and existence of such a place. Get real - Moses had no contact with the ancient Norse, so what are you trying to put over? It is really quite laughable. Call it what you will, I'm tired of your misrepresentations.

Lazarus Short said:

One man says "preconceptions" while another has made up his mind by digging and research. You can read about ducks and the way they walk...or you can observe them in the real world and see how they walk.
No, and again you misrepresent what I write, I do NOT reject the "historical narrative of the Jews about their own history, beliefs etc." Likewise, I do not reject the historicity of the the Norse mythology about Hel. What I do reject is the reality and existence of such a place. Get real - Moses had no contact with the ancient Norse, so what are you trying to put over? It is really quite laughable. Call it what you will, I'm tired of your misrepresentations.

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Jesus and His disciples attended synagogues and temple for about 25-30 years. They certainly would have known what the Jews taught about almost everything, including a place of fiery, eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Hinnom and Sheol which are written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as "Gehenna" and "hades."
Jesus used the same terms to refer that place. What Jesus taught about Gehenna and Hades was the same as the then current Jewish belief. If there was no such place why didn't Jesus correct the Jews of His day?
That Moses had no contact with the ancient Norsemen is not germane. The concept of a place of fiery place of eternal punishment was recognized by O.T. Jews. Scriptures posted numerous times. In Korean the name of that place is geeohk. I lived and worked in Korea for almost 15 years. I don't think they had any contact with the Norsemen either.

Michael Collum said:

Thank you for responding. This conversation will continue going in circles, so I do not think there's much more to add. And I will not reply to the personal questions.

As it is written, a fool is known by a multitude of words. So I will leave it at that, as this amount of words is sufficient.

However, rest assured, I have read all of your posts.

Thanks for the discussion.

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Actually, the conversation isn't going to continue in circles, because you will simply call me a fool and a liar and leave the conversation.

I'm okay with that because that is the point: to limit the number of people promoting what I view to be false doctrine.

I also suspect that the reason you don't answer the "personal questions" is due to the fact that the contempt you have shown for the Church—the Body of Christ—indicates you are not part of a local assembly and you know this disqualifies you as a spokesman for Christ.

For you—the conversation is a dead-end.

Thanks for reading!


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

Actually, the conversation isn't going to continue in circles, because you will simply call me a fool and a liar and leave the conversation.

I'm okay with that because that is the point: to limit the number of people promoting what I view to be false doctrine.

I also suspect that the reason you don't answer the "personal questions" is due to the fact that the contempt you have shown for the Church—the Body of Christ—indicates you are not part of a local assembly and you know this disqualifies you as a spokesman for Christ.

For you—the conversation is a dead-end.

Thanks for reading!


God bless.

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Thank you for revealing your true person to me. Do not expect any further responses.

Michael Collum said:

Thank you for revealing your true person to me. Do not expect any further responses.

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You are quite welcome.

Thanks for admitting you cannot defend your position, but are forced to retreat when your doctrine is challenged.


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

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And those who were not called?
What do they get as their punishment for not being called?
Does the "punishment" fit the "crime"?

Saint Steven said:

And those who were not called?
What do they get as their punishment for not being called?
Does the "punishment" fit the "crime"?

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He cannot grasp the fact that God has concluded the radical ALL in unbelief for a reason.

"That He might have mercy upon ALL."

Might = eleeō =

To have mercy.

To help the one seeking aid.

To help the wretched to experience mercy.

Saint Steven said:

And those who were not called?
What do they get as their punishment for not being called?
Does the "punishment" fit the "crime"?

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Absolutely.

That there will be differing degrees of punishment can be seen here:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


And here:


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

Absolutely.
That there will be differing degrees of punishment can be seen here:
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
And here:
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
God bless.

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Hope you don't mind. I'd like to expound a little on these vss.
This passage speaks about a fate worse than death without mercy vs. 28. Some people argue that a person cannot lose their salvation. It is true in the sense that they don't wake up one morning and somewhere, somehow their salvation is missing like a lost possession. But this passage clearly mentions a person who was "sanctified by the blood of the covenant." That is not someone who only heard the gospel somewhere, sometime. A worse punishment than dying without mercy.
If a person is not a part of the body they can't fall away. Only true believers can fall away.

Der Alte said:

This passage speaks about a fate worse than death without mercy vs. 28. Some people argue that a person cannot lose their salvation. It is true in the sense that they don't wake up one morning and somewhere, somehow their salvation is missing like a lost possession. But this passage clearly mentions a person who was "sanctified by the blood of the covenant." That is not someone who only heard the gospel somewhere, sometime. A worse punishment than dying without mercy.

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We'd be in disagreement on this, my friend, because the Writer of Hebrews spends the first half of the Chapter showing that when we are sanctified by the Sacrifice of Christ we are made complete in regards to remission of sins—forever.

He doesn't turn around and then cancel his teaching just offerred.

If you will notice in v.28 he is contrasting the unbelievers under Law with the unbelievers who have rejected Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Spirit of God (the Comforter's convicting ministry is the obvious reference).

Christ is the One sanctified in v.29.

Those sanctified by Christ are sanctifed once, and this justifies the insertion of "for all."

Those who are sanctified by His Sacrifice are made perfect (complete) forever. The context of the chapter is remission of sins, and the Writer contrasts what the sacrifices of the Law couldn't do with what Christ's Sacrifice does do. That is why His Sacrifice is not offered continually as the sacrifices of the Law were.

Salvation in Christ is everlasting (has no end) and is Eternal (because we are in Him Who is Eternal).

To say that we can "lose" that is to say we had something to do with gaining it in the first place. It is to say that He will leave and forsake us.

And we just don't find this in the Book of Hebrews.

I would highly recommend a study of telos and its variants as used by the Writer of Hebrews. The Theme of Perfection in Hebrews is the end of the loss of salvation hoax.




God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

We'd be in disagreement on this, my friend, because the Writer of Hebrews spends the first half of the Chapter showing that when we are sanctified by the Sacrifice of Christ we are made complete in regards to remission of sins—forever.He doesn't turn around and then cancel his teaching just offerred.
If you will notice in v.28 he is contrasting the unbelievers under Law with the unbelievers who have rejected Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Spirit of God (the Comforter's convicting ministry is the obvious reference).
Christ is the One sanctified in v.29.
Those sanctified by Christ are sanctifed once, and this justifies the insertion of "for all."
Those who are sanctified by His Sacrifice are made perfect (complete) forever. The context of the chapter is remission of sins, and the Writer contrasts what the sacrifices of the Law couldn't do with what Christ's Sacrifice does do. That is why His Sacrifice is not offered continually as the sacrifices of the Law were.
Salvation in Christ is everlasting (has no end) and is Eternal (because we are in Him Who is Eternal).
To say that we can "lose" that is to say we had something to do with gaining it in the first place. It is to say that He will leave and forsake us.
And we just don't find this in the Book of Hebrews.
I would highly recommend a study of telos and its variants as used by the Writer of Hebrews. The Theme of Perfection in Hebrews is the end of the loss of salvation hoax.
God bless.

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Be that as it may. I only quoted scripture and emphasized what it said.
There is only one impossibility mentioned here. It does not say that it is impossible for someone to fall away. If it is not a possibility to fall away, why even mention it?

Der Alte said:

Be that as it may. I only quoted scripture and emphasized what it said.

Hebrews 6:1-6
(1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(3) And this will we do, if God permit.
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

There is only one impossibility mentioned here. It does not say that it is impossible for someone to fall away. If it is not a possibility to fall away, why even mention it?

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I never said it is impossible for someone to fall away, I only said it is impossible for a Christian to lose salvation. You ignored what I said about the first passage you made that assertion about and jumped to this one.

So let's look at the first one:


Hebrews 10:25-29
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Again, the contrast is between Old Testament unbelievers and New Testament unbelievers, not Christians that sin/fall away and unbelievers. Would you admit that v.28 is speaking about those who rejected the Law? Does not v.29 describe those who have rejected Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice (by which He was sanctified (Hebrews 5:9)), and the Spirit of God? Does not v.25 warn not to forsake the assembling of the brethren? As the manner of some is?

Verse 26 states in the negative the same thing that we see the Writer say a few verses earlier in the positive:


Hebrews 10:14-18
King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Why is there no more sacrifice for sin here? Because remission of sins in an eternal context was promised by God and fulfilled by the Cross.

The same reason applies to v.26, there no more sacrifice for sins here because they are rejecting the only sacrifice by which they can receive remission of sins...

Hebrews 10
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


He clarifies the sin in view, and that is rejection of God's will. Those who rejected Moses' Law (The Covenant of Law) will fare better than those that reject the New Covenant:


28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Now, as to Chapter 6:

Der Alte said:

Be that as it may. I only quoted scripture and emphasized what it said.

Hebrews 6:1-6
(1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(3) And this will we do, if God permit.
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

There is only one impossibility mentioned here. It does not say that it is impossible for someone to fall away. If it is not a possibility to fall away, why even mention it?

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Can I ask you, what does it mean to "go on unto perfection?"


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

I never said it is impossible for someone to fall away, I only said it is impossible for a Christian to lose salvation. You ignored what I said about the first passage you made that assertion about and jumped to this one.
So let's look at the first one:
Hebrews 10:25-29
King James Version
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

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Vs. 26 if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
What happens then?

27

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But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

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Aren't the adversaries those who sinned willfully vs. 26 and have no more sacrifice for sins.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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Worse punishment than death without mercy for those who were sanctified by the blood of the covenant, and considered it an unholy thing and trod underfoot the Son of God.

Again, the contrast is between Old Testament unbelievers and New Testament unbelievers, not Christians that sin/fall away and unbelievers. Would you admit that v.28 is speaking about those who rejected the Law? Does not v.29 describe those who have rejected Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice (by which He was sanctified (Hebrews 5:9)), and the Spirit of God? Does not v.25 warn not to forsake the assembling of the brethren? As the manner of some is?

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Evidently there were some who did not heed the warning.

Verse 26 states in the negative the same thing that we see the Writer say a few verses earlier in the positive:
Hebrews 10:14-18
King James Version
14 For by

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one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Why is there no more sacrifice for sin here? Because remission of sins in an eternal context was promised by God and fulfilled by the Cross.
The same reason applies to v.26, there no more sacrifice for sins here because they are rejecting the only sacrifice by which they can receive remission of sins...
Hebrews 10
King James Version
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
He clarifies the sin in view, and that is rejection of God's will. Those who rejected Moses' Law (The Covenant of Law) will fare better than those that reject the New Covenant:
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Now, as to Chapter 6:
Can I ask you, what does it mean to "go on unto perfection?"
God bless.[

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Evidently there are some that do NOT go on to perfection. None of this negates anything I said.
"Sanctified" was an accomplished fact. This is talking about Christians.

P1LGR1M said:

I never said it is impossible for someone to fall away, I only said it is impossible for a Christian to lose salvation.

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I've read this several times and my head hurts. Tbh,.my brain is trying to escape through my ears. What is the distinction you are trying to make between falling away and salvation? Think of me as a child. Can you express your point clearly enough so that I can understand?

Hmm said:

I've read this several times and my head hurts. Tbh,.my brain is trying to escape through my ears. What is the distinction you are trying to make between falling away and salvation? Think of me as a child. Can you express your point clearly enough so that I can understand?

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Yes: get a roll of duct tape. Carefully apply it around your head numerous times.

This will keep your brain intact while I address brother Der Alte's post, lol.

If, after reading the previous response to him, and the response to come, I still haven't made it clear what I mean by distinguishing between those who fall away (those who associate with Christ) and losing salvation (those who are born again believers immersed in Eternal Union with God) I will try to clarify it in another post.


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

If, after reading the previous response to him, and the response to come, I still haven't made it clear what I mean by distinguishing between those who fall away (those who associate with Christ) and losing salvation (those who are born again believers immersed in Eternal Union with God) I will try to clarify it in another post.

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Yes, that's what I asked you to do, no? Explain your point (assuming you have one) to me as if I was a child. Instead of an explanation I get all this...

This is all very disappointing and bewildering. What on earth are you actually saying ???!!!!

I can't sleep until I know and it's 10:30pm in the UK so please hurry.

Der Alte said:

Vs. 26 if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
What happens then?

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Eternal Judgment.

That is what happens to every man and woman that rejects Christ, His Covenant, His sacrifice, and the ministry of the Spirit of Grace.

But how do those who have been sanctified forever and have been forgiven forever...


Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Do you see that the context is remission of sins and that His Sacrifice is contrasted with the sacrifices of the Law (Hebrews 10:1-4)?

So how exactly is one sanctified once and those who are sanctified are made complete in regards to remission of sins forever—suddenly lose the benefit of the very remission of sins that God promised in the New Covenant?


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


There is no more sacrifice for sins necessary because the sin has been forgiven in completion, as opposed to the remission of sins enjoyed through the sacrifices of the Law (Hebrews 10:1). Those sacrifices could not make perfect, or in other words, bring to fulfillment, bring to an end, the reason why those sacrifices were offered in the first place: remission of sin.

We see that the Old Testament Saints sins still had to be redeemed by the Cross (Hebrews 9:15) and that the Old Testament Saints died not having been made perfect, because they did not receive the promises in their lifetime:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


They were made perfect in regards to sin when Christ died in their stead and bestowed the promise of the New Covenant upon them:


Hebrews 12:23
King James Version

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


So it is impossible to teach the exact opposite of what the Writer teaches in the first half of the chapter. This would mean, if Christians were in view, that God will renege on His promise and remember their sin again, and that His statement through the Writer that He has perfected forever those who are sanctified by the Offering of Christ is not true.

Either this verse is true...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Or it isn't.

Me, I know it's true.


Consider:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Those sacrifices could not make the comer thereunto, the worshiper (as well as the one providing the service, the Priest (Hebrews 9:8-9)) complete in regards to remission of sins.

But the Sacrifice of Christ, of which the sacrifices of the Law were a shadow of the "good things to come," not only makes the comer thereunto complete, but does so forever.

Forever.

So again, if one has received remission of sins in completion as was promised by God, how then can it be said God will then remember their sins again?

See the problem there?

As you have asked many people many times, my friend, so too will I ask you:

Does forever mean forever or doesn't it?


Continued...

Hmm said:

Yes, that's what I asked you to do, no? Explain your point (assuming you have one) to me as if I was a child. Instead of an explanation I get all this...

This is all very disappointing and bewildering. What on earth are you actually saying ???!!!!

I can't sleep until I know and it's 10:30pm in the UK so please hurry.

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Oh sorry, I didn't know you were from the UK. That explains why you have no sense of humor.

Just kidding! lol

Read the responses to Der Alte. Like I said, I am in the middle of responding to him and I am at a point where my head's going to explode too, so doing the best I can.


God bless and good night.