The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
Anybody else here put that much time into resolving a single doctrinal issue?

Sure: me.

I took quite a bit of time to address your assertions.

The Public Record shows that this is not just a boast I am making, but that I did in fact spend a lot of time trying to bring resolve to this debate.

Lazarus Short said:
My book is really a tightly-focused commentary, and I am not shaken by any argument presented here.

Can't be shaken by something we ignore, can we.

Lazarus Short said:
Some know now, others will know later. As the Scriptures say, each man in his own order.

Again, out of context use of a verse that does not teach that others will later know that universal salvation is a valid doctrine:

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
King James Version

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Where in this do we see "Some know now, others will know later?"

It is a context of the resurrection of those who are in Christ.

Not a resurrection of all men.

Only those who are in fact in the Kingdom, and we know that everyone is not going to be in the Kingdom, only those who are born again.

I think "bad interpretation skills" is a more apt problem to point to than "bad translation."

God bless.

Der Alte · Sep 5, 2022

Lazarus Short said:
You misrepresent me AGAIN. I have explained before and again today (post #76 above) that I spent over two years in the KJV to DECIDE which afterlife theory was correct. Now "...you started out with preconceptions and you guided your "study" so that you ended up supporting what you had already decided." is something you cannot possibly know, but you plow ahead as if your opinion was carved in stone. ...

If it walks like a duck. You said something about bad translations
↑
You were asked by, @P1LGR1M , "Would you mind presenting these bad translations?"
Your response "The quick answer is any Bible containing the word 'hell.'" It walks and quacks like preconceptions to me.
Here is another major faux pas. You reject the historical narratives of the Jews about their own history, beliefs etc. But in your link: [post #78], above, you quote Danish legends as if Moses, himself, carried them down from mount Sinai. That is called eating your cake and having it too.

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
1) people are doing this, people who belong to an organization they call church.

What has that to do with Christ's teaching itself?

The Lord clearly tells men to fear God (which is just a Bible Basic) because HE has the power to cast into Hell, where He destroys both soul (person) and body.

You have called this a doctrine of Satan.

You have tried to rationalize it and negate the Lord's teaching that men should fear and teach the exact opposite with psycho-babble.

Michael Collum said:
2) Everything the church does is not automatically an action of "the Lord"

I don't even acknowledge that everyone "in the church" is in the Church.

Believers have been and always will be a minority, and there will always be tares among the wheat.

Again, just a Bible Basic.

Michael Collum said:
3) By looking at the biblical context, and only emphasizing certain texts, the people in the organization "church" are cultivating spiritual immaturity.

It is by looking at the context of all relevant passages, including Matthew 10:28—that a conclusion there is no Hell is rejected.

I have not emphasized certain texts. I have presented the Biblical context.

And I have shown that your charge of "immaturity" is itself a denial of Christ's teaching. Christ is the One that told men they should fear, and specifically the judgment of God in Hell.

You reject that teaching and go so far to call His teaching the doctrine of Satan.

That is spiritual maturity?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
No, they were all brand new Christians at the time, it took time for them to mature.

Which means that even brand new Christians are held to a high standard:

Acts 5

King James Version

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

How do you think He feels about His doctrine being ascribed to Satan?

It is pretty evident that the fear generated by God putting New Christians to death was intentionally instilled for their well-being.

And you call this spiritual immaturity? It seems to me that living contrary to His teachings is evidence of spiritual immaturity.

Michael Collum said:
What is written in one place (Acts) does not negate what is written in another place (1st John).

I agree:

1 John 2
King James Version

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Here is a commandment of Christ:

Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

You say men are not to have fear. I'll stick with what He commanded.

Michael Collum said:
That's basic when reading the bible.

I agree.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
1) Today's church cannot be compared to the 1st century church, there lacks a centralized structure regulating what is taught in any given church around the world.

It was no different in the First Century, and God gave us Scripture to deal with it.

That is still true of the Body of Christ today.

That you would suggest there is a different Church for today is absurd.

Do you think God was short-sighted? Was not the Hebrew Scriptures sufficient for the latter end of the Old Testament Eras?

Why would it not be today?

This...

Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Is just as relevant today as the day it was spoken.

Michael Collum said:
2) You cannot claim authority by quoting scripture, the scripture records the devil quoting scripture, and Jesus calling Peter the devil after praising his good confession.

Let me explain, when we quote a clear statement of Scripture we can speak that with the authority Scripture gives it.

I have the authority to say that your teaching that the Doctrine of Hell is satanic is error based on the fact that the Doctrine of Hell was taught by Christ Himself.

But because you do not recognize the authority of Scripture you feel free to teach the exact opposite.

Now tell me again why Christ is wrong to teach men to fear God because He can cast into Hell and right to teach your doctrine that men should not fear God and Hell?

What exactly is the authority you base that on?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
3) The churches abusive practices towards people is reason plenty to leave. If you treat people well, they tend to stick around.

So tell me, exactly what kind of "church" do you go to?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
4) The main scripture where teachings is derived from is what Jesus taught as the number one and two teaching, to love God with all of your heart, mind, body, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus further explained anyone standing next to you is your neighbor.

And I quote:

Michael Collum said: ↑

What is written in one place (Acts) does not negate what is written in another place (1st John).

It's a shame you don't believe the things you say.

Michael Collum said:
The church didn't do this, and taught teachings, applying them in manner that violated this concept, thus negating any authority they claimed through false bravado. A cracked foundation filled in with sand.

What church are you speaking about?

And it is pretty evident in Scripture that the Apostles maintained the teachings of Christ. Peter and Jude are extremely clear in their teachings about Eternal Damnation.

And I am curious as to why you would hold the Church in such contempt and derision.

Where exactly do you fellowship? Perhaps you should be letting the rest of the Church know what local assembly it is they should be going to.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
Father God doesn't want us to fear Him,

Sure He does, hence...

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 3:10-18
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Psalm 34:11
Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

Psalm 103:17
But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Probably not going to learn that from a youtube video.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
that's why He sent Jesus, the Son.

So why do you try to negate His teaching?

Why do you teach others that they need not to fear God?

Proverbs 1:28-30
King James Version

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
This is why we have "the comforter." God, The Holy Spirit sent to us.

You mean the One that...

John 16:7-8
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

What exactly is it about judgment that the Comforter brings about conviction when He is ministering to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
This is wrong teaching.

When you actually provide something from Scripture to support your teaching that the Doctrine of Hell is satanic, and can show that the Lord Jewus Christ did not teach men that they should fear God and Hell—then your assertions might be taken seriously.

Until then, it still remains that Jesus Christ taught men to fear God and Hell.

It was not satanic doctrine, and it was not primal scream therapy.

It was the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
You don't seem to be saying anything in response to me here.

I did, actually, would you like to see it again?

P1LGR1M said:
Michael Collum said:

I do know that God despises those who cause discord among the brethren the most among the list of other things God hates in the proverbs.

Click to expand...

We can go to the New Testament to see what God hates also:

2 Peter 2
King James Version

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

How did God feel about the false prophets of the Old Testament? Were those poor souls victims of fear tactics used by the Prophets? Did God or the Prophets forsake them, and were they were subconsciously coerced?

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

It seems to me that calling the teachings of Christ satanic doctrine is speaking evil of the Way of Truth.

Calling His teachings "primal scream therapy" is speaking evil of the Way of Truth.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

We cannot substitute damnation with salvation.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

God literally put men to death for their sin. For this reason, men should fear Him that hath power, after He has killed, to destroy both soul (person) and body in Hell.

The demons weren't annihilated but held in chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment. We see this with men as well, because both demons and the ungodly will end up in the same place (Matthew 25:41).

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)

Only God can deliver men from judgment.

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But it should be made clear that the unjust have a reservation on the Day of Judgment.

Peter isn't coercing anyone. In fact, Peter cannot change the hearts of men.

But the Word of God can.

And does.

You say God hates discord "the most," and I present other things he hates in the New Testament.

Pretty simple to follow along if you keep the context of the statements in their proper place.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
1) learn to separate your teaching from when God is teaching, you are not God.

I have made it clear that this...

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

...is God's teaching.

Where exactly did I say it was mine?

I have also denied the assertion that this teaching is satanic.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
2) Stating that satan did one thing with the old testament scriptures, and the new testament scriptures are immune exposes your falsehood, too obvious.

That is certainly not my assertion.

Could you show me how you reach this conclusion from this...

P1LGR1M said:
That is exactly what he does.

He tries to use Scripture out of context to support his agenda.

That began in the Garden, and we have no reason to think he and his demons aren't doing the same thing today.

But he didn't take credit for the teachings of Christ, so when people ascribe Christ's teachings to Satan we see the problem immediately.

Matthew 12:24-34
King James Version

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Universal salvation forgets that there is sin that will not be forgiven.

Here is everlasting Damnation, Separation, and Judgment:

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Is Christ trying to use fear tactics?

No, He is simply presenting truth.

And the truth that universal salvation tries to bury is that God will not forgive the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost in this world or the one to come.

No need to try to impose another meaning in it, the phrasing makes it clear, just as this does:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Continued...

...?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
When there are 1000's of denominations with different teachings,

And most of denominations are in agreement on most issues.

This is a false argument of atheists.

How many of these denominations believe in a literal Hell?

About the same number that believe there is a judgment men need to be saved from.

That is why Christ came.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
sound teaching becomes an exercise in satisfying itching ears -

For some, obviously.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
sound teaching becomes an exercise in satisfying itching ears - because it becomes doctrine that "sounds good" to those listening.

Isn't that the rally cry of universal salvation?

Don't fear God, everything will work out in the end.

You don't have to believe the Gospel.

You don't have to be born again.

You don't have to fear God.

You don't have to fear being cast into Hell.

And you think I am trying to satisfy itching ears by teaching Christ's Doctrine that they are to fear God because He has the power to not only cast men into Hell but to destroy them in everlasting torment?

You might want to rethink that.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
Until there's one church, like in the beginning, sound doctrine cannot be claimed.

Like in the beginning?

You mean the church that Paul wrote harsh rebuke to for being carnal?

The church Peter said would have false teachers creeping in upon her?

The church Christ said He would spew out of His mouth?

You want the church to be like her?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
The passage there didn't communicate certainty, but trust in God's judgment.

The point was you were again using a verse out of context.

Read it again, maybe it will be clearer for you to understand that now that I have pointed it out:

P1LGR1M said: ↑
You really need to learn to distinguish between an eternal context and a temporal context, and—to stop using verses out of context to justify yourself:

1 Corinthians 4
King James Version

1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Paul had no doubts about his eternal destiny. Most who are familiar with New Testament teaching know this.

And most are able to distinguish between Paul speaking about his temporal situation as opposed to his salvation in Christ.

This was in response to your statement...

Michael Collum said: ↑

It is also written:

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 1 Corinthians 4:4

So it is not wise to have absolute confidence for any other reason than love being made perfect in you, a love without fear.

You seem to be intent on teaching Christians there is only one reason why they can be confident in judgment: perfect love.

Again, we have many reasons to be confident in our judgment, and using a temporally focused proof text isn't going to change that fact, or the intent in which the Scripture was presented.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Michael Collum said:
I quoted a passage, and you replied with "on the contrary" doesn't that discredit all that you've said up until now?

No, actually—it discredits what you said in the particular statement you made:

P1LGR1M said:
Michael Collum said:

Since a clear conscience does not make you innocent, such confidence is false.

Click to expand...

On the contrary:

Hebrews 9:11-15
King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Having received the Promise of Eternal Inheritance is just one more reason why my conscience has been purged.

Because I understand that what I do here in the temporal arena has no impact on the Work of Christ and that despite what I do in this temporal arena He has saved me anyway.

Yes, we can have confidence about the judgment of God, knowing that our sin has been judged in the Person of Christ and that those who reject the Gospel will undergo Everlasting Punishment.

That is the reason why I try to help people understand that Christ's teaching is not the doctrine of Satan, it is a warning from God Himself.

God bless.

Your teaching...

Michael Collum said:
The scripture says that we have boldness on the day of judgment because love is made mature or perfect in us, no other reason is given.

It is also written:

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 1 Corinthians 4:4

So it is not wise to have absolute confidence for any other reason than love being made perfect in you, a love without fear.

...and your proof text are given in error.

Hebrews shows that our conscience is purged by the Work of Christ.

Pretty simple principle that shows your teaching to be in error.

Continued...

The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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