PilgrimToChrist
Well-Known Member
Does that verse say, "The entirety of Divine Revelation is contained within the Bible"?
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2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
Hope that's good enough for you...you being a "christian" and all.
I suppose she was greater than the RCs first pope, Peter
http://www.christianforums.com/t7327962-6/
Bones of Peter
Well then, I guess that settles that....at least until her bones are found
... On the other hand, if any 'Bible believing' Christian here feels called to chuck out the PC, live in a shed, live on locusts and wild honey and get down to some serious reading, go ahead.
I would think that if there was any doubt to Mary being assumed into Heaven (and we have writings from the Early
Church saying she was) that we would have some letter or myth or anything saying that Mary was buried somewhere. As far as I know we have nothing of the kind. All we have are the traditions that have been passed on since Mary was assumed saying she was assumed.
Well... with the exception of the last hundred or so years. But really, can supposition from the last hundred years be taken seriously with the facts? I do not think so.
Tradition tells us Peter is buried under the Vatican so he is not assumed in to Heaven from any early reports. Paul is the same, in Rome. The other Apostles are believed to be at various locations as well (or at least their bodies). From all known accounts Mary's body was assumed into Heaven and she is not claimed to be buried anywhere.
The earliest report (mentioned earlier in the thread) said, we do not know what happened.
Tradition may be wrong. As mentioned, the earliest account of Mary was that no one knows. And there's something like 9 skulls of the Baptist. Maybe all are wrong. Just like wrong about the relics of Peter and Paul. What difference does it make? Zip.
So, since Tradition is fluid anyway, and there's no way to prove oral Tradition one way or the other, I'd propose that certain NT believers have already been assumed into heaven. People like Mary, Peter, Paul, Thomas, and the other apostles. It's an easy step. Why not?
Two points:
1. No denomination has ever elevated the matters of worship and assembly to the level of infallible dogma requisite for salvation. There are only four Dogmas in the Catholic Church which have been enunciated as dogmas and these are the four Marian Dogmas. Although there is general concensus that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is dogmatic in nature, it has never been declared to be Dogma nor does it address matters or worship and assembly.
2. Catrholic dogma does not state that Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven. If they were, then we know they did so without dying. If Assumption is going to heaven apart from death, then the majority of Catholics (at least according to PilgrimtoChrist) are in error because they believe that Mary died prior to her Assumption.
Very well. Let us examine some of the implications of the Dogma.
If Mary was sinless (the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception) and death is the wages of sin (Romans 3:23) then Mary could not have died because she had no sin for which wages were due. Thus, according to some Catholics, Mary must have been assumed to heaven while yet alive, having completed her course on earth. To believe otherwise would constitute a mortal sin because it would deny the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
How early is the Protoevangelium of James? That book describes Mary and her ascension.
Well yeah, that's why Mary would have inherited tainted physical human DNA that grows from a baby and is able to die, yet her soul remained free of the stain of sin. Even Jesus was able to die though his soul was immaculate.
Rom 8:3 said:For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh...
Summa said:In the verb "to contract" is understood the relation of effect to cause, i.e. that is said to be contracted which is derived of necessity together with its cause. Now the cause of death and such like defects in human nature is sin, since "by sin death entered into this world," according to Romans 5:12. And hence they who incur these defects, as due to sin, are properly said to contract them. Now Christ had not these defects, as due to sin, since, as Augustine [Alcuin in the Gloss, Ord., expounding John 3:31, "He that cometh from above, is above all," says: "Christ came from above, i.e. from the height of human nature, which it had before the fall of the first man." For He received human nature without sin, in the purity which it had in the state of innocence. In the same way He might have assumed human nature without defects. Thus it is clear that Christ did not contract these defects as if taking them upon Himself as due to sin, but by His own will.
It was the draw of the Holy Spirit dear friend
Luke 21:5 And certain saying about the Temple that to stones ideal and devoted-things/ana-qhmasin <334> it hath been adorned He said.......
Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.............
.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins............
If we believe Mary was bodily assumed into heaven after her death, then is there any reason to believe that Peter, Paul, and the other apostles have not also been bodily assumed into heaven also?
We are, after all, talking about oral tradition, but I think I can build a case for that.
I assume that when you say "no proof of any kind", you mean no proof apart from her empty tomb.My point is that there is no proof that Mary was not assumed in to Heaven. I am not trying to prove she was, that takes Faith as well. But there is no proof of any kind that she died and was buried.
I assume that when you say "no proof of any kind", you mean no proof apart from her empty tomb.
Epiphanius 377ad no one knows her end.
P of J c150ad is of dubious origin and generally rejected by RC because it suggests that Jesus' brothers were step-brothers by Joseph (EO), rather than His cousins (RC).
Anyway, PoJ, IIRC, doesn't even speak to Mary's end.
Of course she is -- there is no one greater in all of Creation!
It is truly meet and right to bless you, O Theotokos,
Ever-blessed and most-pure mother of our God.
More honourable than the Cherubim,
And beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who without corruption gave birth to God the Word,
True Theotokos: we magnify you.
Does that verse say, "The entirety of Divine Revelation is contained within the Bible"?
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