The Christian case for Fascism

Axeless · Aug 23, 2012

Hi. I am a believing calvinist, and I believe that fascism is the best form of government. Before you jump down my throat, let me explain that I have studied the bible very carefully on this issue, and I think I have come to the right conclusion.

Facism is a form of government has totalitarian rule over society. It makes all the rules by decree, and there is absolutely no voting invloved at all. All dissent is punished, and the state makes ties with the corporate elites in order to garuntee mutal prosperity.

This system is a lot like how God governs the universe. He makes all the rules and he doesn't allow any voting.

This is also how the majority of christian societies have functioned throughout history. Jesus never endorsed democracy or "human rights" these things were all inventions of the secular enlightenment.

Even in the old testament the kingdoms of God were governed in a totalitarian fascist way.

Let me also be clear that I am not endorsing nazism, that would be sick, I am only endorsing a totalitarian system that imposes one universal christian standard on the nation.

Thoughts? Comments?

Albion · Aug 23, 2012

Axeless said:
Hi. I am a believing calvinist, and I believe that fascism is the best form of government. Before you jump down my throat, let me explain that I have studied the bible very carefully on this issue, and I think I have come to the right conclusion.

Facism is a form of government has totalitarian rule over society. It makes all the rules by decree, and there is absolutely no voting invloved at all. All dissent is punished, and the state makes ties with the corporate elites in order to garuntee mutal prosperity.

This system is a lot like how God governs the universe. He makes all the rules and he doesn't allow any voting.

This is also how the majority of christian societies have functioned throughout history. Jesus never endorsed democracy or "human rights" these things were all inventions of the secular enlightenment.

Even in the old testament the kingdoms of God were governed in a totalitarian fascist way.

Let me also be clear that I am not endorsing nazism, that would be sick, I am only endorsing a totalitarian system that imposes one universal christian standard on the nation.

Thoughts? Comments?

First, I cannot endorse any political system that denies its people fundamental rights, even for the sake of efficiency.

But also, you are advocating something like a Christian Fascism. Fascism itself, using the historical models, is not particularly concerned about doing the Biblical or Church-y thing. It sees the nature of mankind as religious, all right, but there's no particular application. That means that you are advocating a theory that has almost no historical precedent.

Axeless · Aug 23, 2012

Albion said:
First, I cannot endorse any political system that denies its people fundamental rights, even for the sake of efficency.

Who says people have fundamental rights? Show me that in the bible. Where does Jesus give anyone the right to vote? I might admit you have a "right" to your life, but beyond that not really.

But also, you are advocating something like a Christian Fascism. Fascism itself, using the historical models, is not particularly concerned about doing the Biblical or Church-y thing. It sees the nature of mankind as religious, all right, but there's no particular application. That means that you are advocating a theory that has almost no historical precedent.

I disagree. Many christian dictatorships have existed in africa, latin america and europe. And no... they were not all Roman Catholic either..

Albion · Aug 23, 2012

Axeless said:
Who says people have fundamental rights?

Then I'll rephrase. I personally believe that the Western concepts of life, liberty, and property--freedom, that is to say--ought to be retained in any kind of government.

Show me that in the bible. Where does Jesus give anyone the right to vote? I might admit you have a "right" to your life, but beyond that not really.

Where is THAT in the Bible? The point is that all of these can be and have been argued from the Biblical perspective, but since the Bible does not oppose them, I am morally free to support them.

I disagree. Many christian dictatorships have existed in africa, latin america and europe. And no... they were not all Roman Catholic either..

Dictatorships, perhaps. But you said you were for Fascism, not just any dictatorship. None of these was Fascistic and that was what I was responding to.

Axeless · Aug 23, 2012

Then I'll rephrase. I personally believe that the Western concepts of life, liberty, and property--freedom, that is to say--ought to be retained in any kind of government.

Where is THAT in the Bible? The point is that all of these can be and have been argued from the Biblical perspective, but since the Bible does not oppose them, I am morally free to support them.

You clearly are a very ignorant individual when it comes to both facsism and the scripture. If you knew anything about the bible you would know that jesus said "render unto cesaer what is cesaers and to gods what is gods". This is important because what jesus is saying here is that all property is first owned by the state and second that the state should be regarded as a sort of demi god. I am not saying the state is divine, I am just saying that it fills the place of God on earth. This is why St. Paul tells us that whosoever resists the power earns the path of damnation. This is clear indication from the Bible that state is to have as much control as possible over our lives.

Your second point about it not being condemned by the bible is wrong. It is condemned. Democracy does not follow the priciple to render unto cesaer what is ceasars because it places the people is a poistion of power above cesear. It is, in fact, a form of anarchy, the founding fathers said so themselves.

Albion · Aug 24, 2012

Axeless said:
You clearly are a very ignorant individual when it comes to both facsism and the scripture.

But I can spell both Fascism and Caesar.

If you knew anything about the bible you would know that jesus said "render unto cesaer what is cesaers and to gods what is gods". This is important because what jesus is saying here is that all property is first owned by the state and second that the state should be regarded as a sort of demi god.

Please humor poor ignorant me and help us with the following:

1. Who in the Christian community has told you that rendering unto cesaer (sic) means that all property is first owned by the state? Most Christians properly understand this to mean either to obey the state or avoid worldly things.

2. Fascism does not advocate OR practice the concept of the state owning all private property. Historically, it drew strength from standing AGAINST that idea.

Your second point about it not being condemned by the bible is wrong. It is condemned. Democracy does not follow the priciple to render unto cesaer what is ceasars because it places the people is a poistion of power above cesear. It is, in fact, a form of anarchy, the founding fathers said so themselves.

I have not once used the word "democracy" or anything close to it in this discussion. It's your strawman.

Leap · Aug 24, 2012

Axeless said:
Hi. I am a believing calvinist, and I believe that fascism is the best form of government. Before you jump down my throat, let me explain that I have studied the bible very carefully on this issue, and I think I have come to the right conclusion.

Facism is a form of government has totalitarian rule over society. It makes all the rules by decree, and there is absolutely no voting invloved at all. All dissent is punished, and the state makes ties with the corporate elites in order to garuntee mutal prosperity.

This system is a lot like how God governs the universe. He makes all the rules and he doesn't allow any voting.

This is also how the majority of christian societies have functioned throughout history. Jesus never endorsed democracy or "human rights" these things were all inventions of the secular enlightenment.

Even in the old testament the kingdoms of God were governed in a totalitarian fascist way.

Let me also be clear that I am not endorsing nazism, that would be sick, I am only endorsing a totalitarian system that imposes one universal christian standard on the nation.

Thoughts? Comments?

Hmmm. I think perhaps you are confusing Fascism and Totalitarianism. Whilst Fascism is a form of Totalitarianism, not all forms of Totalitarianism are Fascist. So whilst it is fair to say that Christianity is totalitarian (in so far as God's law governs all and no part of life is beyond its reach) it is misleading to say that Christianity is therefore fascist (which is a distinct nationalist, progress-oriented, industrialist and popularist version of Totalitarianism).

Incidentally, if you are a "believing calvinist" why do you have "seeker" down as your religion?

Albion · Aug 24, 2012

Leap said:
Hmmm. I think perhaps you are confusing Fascism and Totalitarianism. Whilst Fascism is a form of Totalitarianism, not all forms of Totalitarianism are Fascist.

Probably correct, although most authorities feel that genuine Fascism is not Totalitatian. Naziism and Communism, yes, but Fascism no. In any case, he clearly is using the word to refer to any dictatorship that has some kind of religious element.

So whilst it is fair to say that Christianity is totalitarian (in so far as God's law governs all and no part of life is beyond its reach)

But even that is questionable. God is absolute; his teachings are not open for debate; but we are not taught that a Totalitarian political system is God's will for mankind--and certainly not a Marxist one mislabeled Fascist as our friend has done.

Leap · Aug 24, 2012

Albion said:
But even that is questionable. The term is of recent origin and does not IMO cover what you are referring to. "Dictatorial" would be correct here, but probably not "Totalitarian," although that might be a minor point.

I'm warey of the baggage that the term "Totalitarian" carries with it, and yes it is a modern term, but the concept of it as being an authority that reaches into every aspect of life and from which no area of life is sacrosanct is indeed a fair reflection of God's rule. The fact that we might have a twinge against Christianity being called "totalitarian" is probably indicative of just how insidious Liberalism has been.

Albion · Aug 24, 2012

Leap said:
I'm warey of the baggage that the term "Totalitarian" carries with it, and yes it is a modern term, but the concept of it as being an authority that reaches into every aspect of life and from which no area of life is sacrosanct is indeed a fair reflection of God's rule.

Not as a governmental policy. If anything, the New Testament teaches us to keep political authority and our own moral oblgations separate.

The fact that we might have a twinge against Christianity being called "totalitarian" is probably indicative of just how insidious Liberalism has been.

OK, but the only thing about Christianity being in any way Totalitarian is that we individuals, or the church, adhere completely to God's teachings, NOT that we are to submit to the government in all other aspects of our lives.

Leap · Aug 24, 2012

Albion said:
Not as a governmental policy. If anything, the New Testament teaches us to keep political authority and our own moral oblgations separate.

Only when the govt is not Christian in nature.

OK, but the only thing about Christianity being in any way Totalitarian is that we individuals, or the church, adhere completely to God's teachings, NOT that we are to submit to the government in all other aspects of our lives.

We are called to submit to God's law in every aspect of our lives.

Albion · Aug 24, 2012

Leap said:
Only when the govt is not Christian in nature.

No, no. We cannot say that just because the government is formally "Christian" that it commands absolute control over all aspects of our lives, including all rights to movement, privacy, property ownership, family matters, etc.

We are called to submit to God's law in every aspect of our lives.

Then I will submit to God, not to some bureaucrat claiming to speak for God. This isn't rocket science, folks!

Axeless · Aug 24, 2012

But I can spell both Fascism and Caesar.

The typical response I expect form somene who is losing an argument.

1. Who in the Christian community has told you that rendering unto cesaer (sic) means that all property is first owned by the state? Most Christians properly understand this to mean either to obey the state or avoid worldly things.

Jesus said "render unto cesar WHAT IS CAESARS", that means that the coin, although it was owned by the pharisee, was still the property of caesar.

As for the christian community, I think they have largely been compromised by classical liberalism. I read the bible for what it says, not based on my political presuppositions.

2. Fascism does not advocate OR practice the concept of the state owning all private property. Historically, it drew strength from standing AGAINST that idea.

This again shows your enept ability to read history. Fascist states may "allow" citizens to have more popery than socialism, but this does not change the fact that the state can take property away from anyone at any time.

No, no. We cannot say that just because the government is formally "Christian" that it commands absolute control over all aspects of our lives, including all rights to movement, privacy, property ownership, family matters, etc.

Yes, we can. Even if the state wasn't christian it would still have rights over all those things.

Albion · Aug 24, 2012

Axeless said:
The typical response I expect form somene who is losing an argument.

You must hear it a lot, huh?

Jesus said "render unto cesar WHAT IS CAESARS", that means that the coin, although it was owned by the pharisee, was still the property of caesar.

Uh, no.

This again shows your enept ability to read history.

Speaking of things to say when you've lost an argument....

Fascist states may "allow" citizens to have more popery tha soialism, bu ths does not change that fact th the state can take property away from anyone at any time.

Watch that popery!

es, we can. Even if the state weren't christian it would have rights over all those things.

I get that you'd like to give it all to the state, but most of us favor freedom. And that's all this is--other than my trying to clue you to the facts of history and political science--a difference of opinion about the kind of society in which we'd like to live.

Leap · Aug 24, 2012

Albion said:
No, no. We cannot say that just because the government is formally "Christian" that it commands absolute control over all aspects of our lives, including all rights to movement, privacy, property ownership, family matters, etc.

Matt 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

1 Cor 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ."

Jesus has ALL authority in heaven and earth. The Church is Christ's body on earth. Do you still think that the Church does not have "absolute control over all aspects of our lives"? A govt that is of the Church is a rightful "totalitarian" one.

Albion · Aug 24, 2012

Leap said:
Matt 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

1 Cor 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ."

Jesus has ALL authority in heaven and earth. The Church is Christ's body on earth. Do you still think that the Church does not have "absolute control over all aspects of our lives"? A govt that is of the Church is a rightful "totalitarian" one.

That's a plea for a theocracy, but it's based on several non-sequiturs. What Jesus said of HIMSELF is not what he ordained for his Church. The Church has no power to do wrong. And it has no authority to operate outside of its appointed realm.

In any case, few Christians would agree with that rather unusual concept of "Christian totalitarianism," and I'm not with those who do, so that's that.

Leap · Aug 24, 2012

Albion said:
That's a plea for a theocracy, but it's based on several non-sequiturs. What Jesus said of HIMSELF is not what he ordained for his Church. The Church has no power to do wrong. And it has no authority to operate outside of its appointed realm.

The Church is Christ on earth....

In any case, few Christians would agree with that rather unusual concept of "Christian totalitarianism," and I'm not with those who do, so that's that.

Because the word carries with it unfortunate baggage of Stalin etc, yet the concept remains true of Christianity.

Albion · Aug 24, 2012

Leap said:
The Church is Christ on earth....

Because the word carries with it unfortunate baggage of Stalin etc, yet the concept remains true of Christianity.

I don't think so, but I'd love to have you list a few Christian theologians who agree with you.

nChrist · Aug 25, 2012

Go to North Korea and be happy. Write and let us know how you like it - if they let you write.

Godfixated · Sep 13, 2012

Axeless said:
Hi. I am a believing calvinist, and I believe that fascism is the best form of government. Before you jump down my throat, let me explain that I have studied the bible very carefully on this issue, and I think I have come to the right conclusion.

Facism is a form of government has totalitarian rule over society. It makes all the rules by decree, and there is absolutely no voting invloved at all. All dissent is punished, and the state makes ties with the corporate elites in order to garuntee mutal prosperity.

This system is a lot like how God governs the universe. He makes all the rules and he doesn't allow any voting.

This is also how the majority of christian societies have functioned throughout history. Jesus never endorsed democracy or "human rights" these things were all inventions of the secular enlightenment.

Even in the old testament the kingdoms of God were governed in a totalitarian fascist way.

Let me also be clear that I am not endorsing nazism, that would be sick, I am only endorsing a totalitarian system that imposes one universal christian standard on the nation.

Thoughts? Comments?

Uh no. First of all, God's governing of ancient Israel was the only true Theocracy, meaning rule by God. Second, Christianity in no way advocates a fascistic or totalitarian view of the world. While ancient Israel ended up as a Totalitarian Monarchy, that was all under the Law. We are now under a whole new Administration because of Christ's fulfillment of the Law. Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." We are now under the administration of grace. Galatians 3:24-26, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Much of the Epistles of Paul advocates us to see ourselves as joint heirs with Christ, it does not advocate that we are lowly subjects of a totalitarian God who rules all. No, we are participators in the faith. In reality, The Word advocates for a Republic or Democracy where people have the power to actively participate in the governmental process.

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