The Book of Hebrews: Condemned

icbal · Mar 26, 2005

I have read the New Testament of the bible for the most part.
I make no secret of the fact I cannot take "St" Pauls 13 letters to myself, for his virtual zero contact with the Christ, and his fights with Jesus' 12 chosen.

But I have read much of the NT none-the-less.

And I got myself 7 chapters and 5 verses through the book of Hebrews, until I found 2 little verse.

Hebrews 8:6-7
6. But the ministry Jesus has recieved is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and is founded on better promises.
7. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Either my eyes are decieving me, or the author of Hebrews just told us Gods first covenant wasn't good enough.

Who is this person to speak so belittling of Gods work!?

Here's what God thought and said about the two covenants:

Jeremiah 31:31-4
31. See, a time is coming -declares the LORD- when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
32. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers, when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, a covenant which they broke, so that I rejected them -declares the LORD.
33. But such is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel after these days -declares the LORD: I will put My Teaching into their inmost being and inscribe it upon their hearts. Then I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34. No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, "Heed the LORD"; for all of them, from the least of them to the greatest, shall heed Me - declares the LORD.

God seems to think that it was entirely good enough, but that Israel kept breaking the covenant.
Which they did. Time, and time again.
They seemed easily pleased enough to follow the covenant when God saved them from oppression, but were all too quick to toss it aside when they were on top.

This is not a book of God, and I do hereby refuse to read one more word of it.
The book of Hebrews is null and void to me.

arunma · Mar 26, 2005

Icbal said:
I make no secret of the fact I cannot take "St" Pauls 13 letters to myself, for his virtual zero contact with the Christ, and his fights with Jesus' 12 chosen.

What fights?

icbal · Mar 26, 2005

Why is it always the case here, that the point of the subject is ignored and trails off onto a subject barely mentioned.

If you want to know the disagreements, and arguements, I will show you, but I expected to perhaps see more defending of the book of Hebrews as a scripture.

If that doesn't happen, I will have to accept that you all too disregard it.

Green Man · Mar 26, 2005

icbal said:
Why is it always the case here, that the point of the subject is ignored and trails off onto a subject barely mentioned.

If you want to know the disagreements, and arguements, I will show you, but I expected to perhaps see more defending of the book of Hebrews as a scripture.

If that doesn't happen, I will have to accept that you all too disregard it.

I'm curious myself.What fights are you referring to?

Iron Lion · Mar 26, 2005

yup me too

Buccaneer · Mar 26, 2005

Perhaps you should also look at the greek of hebrews.alot of times words are translated wrongly. Paul's messages are misunderstood especially in the english. Research the greek concordances.

Iron Lion · Mar 26, 2005

They dont know who wrote Hebrews. They dont believe it to have been Paul due to its style

arunma · Mar 26, 2005

OK, back to the subject at hand. Once in awhile (and I admit, this is pretty rare), you'll run into people who think that a document can't be divinely inspired Scripture unless it's written in the form of a story. Because the letters are, well, letters, they are often disregarded. Just my opinion, but this is the epitome of idiocy. The style of writing has nothing to do with a document's authenticity.

To me, the epistles of the apostles are the most authentic Scriptures. Unlike the Old Testament, we actually know who wrote these letters (except for Hebrews, of course). And unlike the Gospels or Acts, these were written shortly after Jesus' resurrection.

Icbal said:
Please excuse my language, but who the HELL is this person to speak so belittling of Gods work!?

This type of logic is what is at issue, here. The book of Hebrews is God's work. The Torah, on the other hand, appears at first glace to be the product of Mesopotamian mythology and the redactions of various Jewish authors. Hebrews, on the other hand, was written by a disciple of Christ (possibly an apostle), and was accepted early on by the entire Christian church. If I had to choose between the Torah and Hebrews, I'll take Hebrews any day.

Of course, I happen to believe in Biblical inspiration and inerrency, so I think that everything is authentic (including the Torah). But I'm trying to approach this from a neutral perspective.

tulc · Mar 26, 2005

If that doesn't happen, I will have to accept that you all too disregard it.

Why would you think that?
tulc(who really likes the book of Hebrews)

arunma · Mar 26, 2005

Personally, Paul's are my favorite epistles, but I like Hebrews too. Well, of course I like all of them! Actually, I'm currently doing a Bible study on Hebrews with a friend from church.

BarbB · Mar 26, 2005

tulc said:
Why would you think that?
tulc(who really likes the book of Hebrews)

Oh, me too, tulc. It was my first Bible study as a Christian and I have to say that it explained alot to me that I didn't understand before!

tulc · Mar 26, 2005

31. See, a time is coming -declares the LORD- when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

uhmm why have a new covenent if the old one was perfect? If you read the whole book (which I recomend highly!) I think you will be pleasently surprised:

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past ageand Sarah herself was barrenwas enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better countrya heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Or this one:

Hebrews 12
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13Make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears. 18You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20because they could not bear what was commanded: If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned. 21The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, I am trembling with fear.

22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens. 27The words once more indicate the removing of what can be shakenthat is, created thingsso that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.

tulc(a big Hebrews fan!)

corvus_corax · Mar 26, 2005

arunma said:
Of course, I happen to believe in Biblical inspiration and inerrency, so I think that everything is authentic.

Just out of curiosity, what do you base that on?

arunma · Mar 26, 2005

corvus_corax said:
Just out of curiosity, what do you base that on

I base it on the doctrine that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I assume that if something is inspired by God, then it should be considered inerrent. But I freely admit that this is an extra belief; the Bible never says that it's inerrent.

corvus_corax · Mar 26, 2005

arunma said:
I base it on the doctrine that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I assume that if something is inspired by God, then it should be considered inerrent. But I freely admit that this is an extra belief; the Bible never says that it's inerrent.

Cool. I was just wondering

Arthra · Mar 26, 2005

The Covenant between God and man is that we will never be left alone without divine guidance.

In the first verse of Hebrews:

"At various times in the past and invarious different ways, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets..."

- Hebrews 1:1

God spoke through the Prophets and Messengers of the past and both the Bible and the Qur'an agree on this.

The book of Hebrews also recognizes the sacrifices of Messengers and prophets of the past:

"Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground."

- Hebrews 11:37-38

A new covenant is necessary for the further spiritual progress of humanity and some of new ordinances of this covenant were in the Sermon of the Mount.

The earlier Covenant prepared faithful people to look forward to Jesus and the New Covenant... this process is continuous. Jesus promises the Paraclete is to come and this is what His followers looked forward to...

markie4u2001 · Mar 26, 2005

Who is this person to speak so belittling of Gods work?! You know we could say that about mohammed. Who does he think he is?

arunma · Mar 26, 2005

Like I said, Icbal forgot to note that Hebrews is God's work. The person writing the epistle is writing by divine inspiration of the Spirit of Christ. That is who he, and yet he is not belittling God's work, but adding to it by the instruction of God.

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