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He inclines me to His words.
Acts 17:11:
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
This passage proves that Scripture is to be held the ultimate authority, certainly more so than "oral testimony". The Bible goes so far as to commend the Bereans as "more noble" than another group, for checking what was testified against Scripture.
This DOESN'T mean that "oral testimony" isn't important; so nobody needs to cry about how the Bereans wouldn't have know Jesus came if not for testimony; it simply means that Scripture is the ultimate authority, not "oral tradition". Oral tradition is good, only if it is in light of Scripture. The Bereans wouldn't have accepted Paul's testimony if it didn't line up with Scripture.
Peace.
Would that be akin to "inventions"This is one of the places where accountability is embraced and Scripture indicated as the rule in norming (aka Sola Scriptura).
What it does NOT say is, "They accepted whatever their teachers said with docility as unto God" which is what the RCC insists upon instead (the Catechism of the RCC # 87, etc., etc., etc.). Nor does it say, "They searched the Tradition of the RCC as currently defined by the RCC and chosen by the RCC and interpreted by the RCC."
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^ ^ THIS ^ ^
How Blessed it is, when this becomes true in US! To have a heart hungry to know what HE has to say, and to be ready to forego our own notions that may be contrary. How wonderful to be able to compare notes with others who have devoted their lives to this same quest ...
As well, there is no way to get a sola scriptura approach out of this.
Thekla! How dare you know the translations of the original Greek, and to top it off, to have double checked with those even more experienced in Hellenistic Greek, and even worse, that you care to have an accurate reading of the Scriptures so as to understand what they are saying correctly. The nerve!I agree that the verse gets lopsided ... one of my big problems is that the verse is mistranslated and used as a proof text for Sola Scriptura -- and in so doing the Bereans eagerness for hearing is missed !
I couldn't agree with you more on that point !
And I'm not interested in "wrangling"
I honor and value the Holy Scriptures. I want to know what is written, not someone's agenda written into the text through mistranslation !
My overarching concern arises from respect for what is written in Scripture ...
Thekla! How dare you know the translations of the original Greek, and to top it off, to have double checked with those even more experienced in Hellenistic Greek, and even worse, that you care to have an accurate reading of the Scriptures so as to understand what they are saying correctly. The nerve!
Really! I mean, why didn't he go out and start his own churches after his epiphany with Christ?! Why did he submit to his elders? For shame. Didn't he know his ego was more important than that?And how dare Paul consult the guys in Jerusalem instead of his bible! Didn't he know that all he needed to do was read the Scriptures?
And how dare Paul consult the guys in Jerusalem instead of his bible! Didn't he know that all he needed to do was read the Scriptures?
Yeah.....Paul couldn't win for losing against the Elders of the JewsReally! I mean, why didn't he go out and start his own churches after his epiphany with Christ?! Why did he submit to his elders? For shame. Didn't he know his ego was more important than that?
They used Scripture, yes, but how will you support the claim that they used Scripture alone?How dare those at Jerusalem using Scripture (Acts 15:15-19) as the rule rather than just embracing whatever is said with docility (CCC 87) or using RCC Tradition?
Josiah said:
How dare these people be praised for holding the teacher as accountable and embracing Scripture as the rule (what is known as Sola Scriptura)?
How dare those at Jerusalem using Scripture (Acts 15:15-19) as the rule rather than just embracing whatever is said with docility (CCC 87) or using RCC Tradition?
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They used Scripture, yes, but how will you support the claim that they used Scripture alone?
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Josiah said:Acts 17:11 is one of the places where accountability is embraced and where Scripture is used as the rule in norming (aka Sola Scriptura).
CJ is one of the great Protestant apologist here on GT against the doctrine of Roman CatholicismCJ I always enjoy reading your posts, caught the same myself amen
This is just avoiding the question. I asked you how you will support the claim that Scripture alone was used in Acts 15. You made the positive claim, so it's your task to prove it.Read Acts 15:15-19. Where is the statement, "whatever is said is to be embraced with docility as God speaking" (The Catechism written by the RCC
# 87, etc.)? Where does it state, "This is confirmed by RCC Tradition" - and then quote such?
What is that? Is that bowing down to worship a mere mortal? Don't you know you're to reserve that for the LORD?CJ is one of the great Protestant apologist here on GT against the doctrine of Roman Catholicism
This is just avoiding the question. I asked you how you will support the claim that Scripture alone was used in Acts 15.
Josiah said:Acts 17:11 is one of the places where accountability is embraced and where Scripture is used as the rule in norming (aka Sola Scriptura).
Read Acts 15:15-19. Where is the statement, "whatever is said is to be embraced with docility as God speaking" (The Catechism written by the RCC
# 87, etc.)? Where does it state, "This is confirmed by RCC Tradition" - and then quote such?
How dare these people be praised for holding the teacher as accountable and embracing Scripture as the rule (what is known as Sola Scriptura)?
How dare those at Jerusalem using Scripture (Acts 15:15-19) as the rule rather than just embracing whatever is said with docility (CCC 87) or using RCC Tradition?
The Rule of Scripture in Norming (What Luther and Calvin called "Sola Scriptura")
The Definition:
The Rule of Scripture is the practice of embracing Scripture as the rule ("straight edge") - canon ("measuring stick") - norma normans (the norm that norms) as it is called in epistemology, as we examine and evaluate the positions (especially doctrines) among us.
Here is the official, historic definition: "The Scriptures are and should remain the sole rule in the norming of all doctrine among us" (Lutheran Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Rule and Norm, 9). "We pledge ourselves to the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments as the pure and clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true norm according to which all teachers and teachings are to be judged" (ditto, 3).
What it IS:
1. An embrace of accountability for the doctrines among us (especially those in dispute).
2. An embrace of norming (the process of examining positions for truth, correctness, validity).
3. An embrace of Scripture as the best, most sound rule/canon/norma normans for this process.
What it is NOT:
1. A teaching that all revelation or truth is found in Scripture. It's not a teaching at all, it is the PRACTICE of using Scripture as the rule in the norming of doctrines. Scripture itself says that "the heavens declare the glory of God" but our visual reception of the stars is not used as the norma normans for the evaluation of doctrines among us in the practice of Sola Scriptura.
2. A teaching that Scripture is "finished." It's not a teaching at all. While probably all that practice Sola Scripture agree with all others that God seems to have inscribed His last book around 100 AD and doens't seem to be adding any more books, the Rule of Scripture was just as "valid" in 1400 BC when Scripture consisted of just two stone tablets as it is today - only the corpus of Scripture is larger, that has no impact on the practice of embracing it as the rule/canon/norma normans in our evaluation of doctrines among us. The Rule of Scripture embraces the Scripture that is.
3. Hermeneutics. The Rule of Scripture has to do with WHAT is the most sound rule/canon/norma normans for the evaluation of the doctrines among us, it is not a hermeneutical principle. Obviously that Scripture needs to be interpreted, but that's a different subject or another day and thread. The Rule of Scripture has to do with norming, not interpreting.
4. Arbitration. Obviously, some process of determining whether the doctrine under review "measures up" (arbitration) to the "measuring stick" (the canon). This is also beyond the scope here, the Rule of Scripture is the embrace of Scripture AS that canon, it does not address the issue of HOW it is best determined if a position "measures up" to that canon.
An illustration:
Let's say Dave and Fred are neighbors. They decided that they will hire a contractor to build a brick wall on their property line, six feet tall. Dave and Fred hire Bob the Builder. He agrees to build the wall on the property line - six feet tall.
Bob is now done. He claims the wall is six feet tall. Does it matter? If it doesn't, if his work and claim are entirely MOOT - then, nope - truth doesn't matter. And can just ignore what he said and did. OR we can consider that of the nearly 7 billion people in the world, there is ONE who is incapable of being wrong about measurements - and that ONE is Bob the Builder, claims ONE - Bob the Builder. IF Bob the Builder alone is right about what he alone claims about he alone here, it's pretty much a waste of time to wonder if what he said about this is true or not. But, IF truth matters and IF Bob the Builder will permit accountability (perhaps because he is confident the wall IS six feet tall), then we have the issue of accountability: Is the wall what we desire and what Bob the Builder claims it is?
If so, we just embraced norming. Norming is the process of determining correctness of the positions among us. For example, Bob claiming the wall is 6 feet tall. Is that correct? Addressing that question is norming.
Norming typically involves a norm: WHAT will serve as the rule (straight edge) or canon (measuring stick) - WHAT will be embraced by all parties involved in the normative process that is the reliable standard, the plumbline. Perhaps in the case of Fred and Dave, they embrace a standard Sears Measuring Tape. They both have one, Bob does too. Dave, Fred and Bob consider their carpenter's Sears Measuring Tape as reliable for this purpose, it's OBJECTIVE (all 3 men can read the numbers), it's UNALTERABLE (none of the 3 can change what the tape says) and it's OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND all 3 parties. Using that could be called "The Rule of the Measuring Tape." The Sears Measuring Tape would be the "canon" (the word means 'measuring stick') for this normative process.
Why Scripture?
In epistemology (regardless of discipline), the most sound norma normans is usually regarded as the most objective, most knowable by all and alterable by none, the most universally embraced by all parties as reliable for this purpose. My degree is in physics. Our norma normans is math and repeatable, objective, laborative evidence. Me saying, "what I think is the norm for what I think" will be instantly disregarded as evidential since it's both moot and circular. I would need to evidence and substantiate my view with a norm fully OUTSIDE and ABOVE and BEYOND me - something objective and knowable. This is what The Handbook of the Catholic Faith proclaims (page136), "The Bible is the very words of God and no greater assurance of credence can be given. The Bible was inspired by God. Exactly what does that mean? It means that God Himself is the Author of the Bible. God inspired the penmen to write as He wished.... the authority of the Bible flows directly from the Author of the Bible who is God; it is authoritative because the Author is." Those that accept the Rule of Scripture tend to agree. It's embrace as the most sound Rule flows from our common embrace of Scripture as the inscriptured words of God for God is the ultimate authority.
The embrace of Scripture as the written words of God is among the most historic, ecumenical, universal embraces in all of Christianity. We see this as reliable, dependable, authoritative - it as a very, very, broad and deep embrace as such - typically among all parties involved in the evaluation. (See the illustration above).
It is knowable by all and alterable by none. We can all see the very words of Romans 3:25 for example, they are black letters on a white page - knowable! And they are unalterable. I can't change what is on the page in Romans 3:25, nor can any other; what is is.
It is regarded as authoritative and reliable. It is knowable by all and alterable by none. Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming ( the RCC and LDS, for example ) have no better alternative (something more inspired, more inerrant, more ecumenically/historically embraced by all parties, more objectively knowable, more unalterable), they have no alternative that is clearly more sound for this purpose among us.
To simply embrace the teachings of self (sometimes denominational "tradition" or "confession") as the rule/canon is simply self looking in the mirror at self - self almost always reveals self. In communist Cuba, Castro agrees with Castro - it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Castro is correct. We need a Rule outside, beyond, above self.
Why do some so passionately reject it?
Those that reject the Rule of Scripture in norming tend to do so not because they reject Scripture or have an alternative that is MORE inerrant, MORE the inscripturated words of God, MORE reliable, MORE objectively knowable, MORE unalterable, MORE ecumenically embraced as authoriative. Rather the rejection tends to be because each rejects accountability (and thus norming and any norm in such) in the sole, singular, exclusive, particular, unique case of self alone. From The Handbook of the Catholic Faith (page 151), "When the Catholic is asked for the substantiation for his belief, the correct answer is: From the teaching authority. This authority consists of the bishops of The Catholic Church in connection with the Catholic Pope in Rome. The faithful are thus freed from the typically Protestant question of 'is it true' and instead rests in quiet confidence that whatever the Catholic Church teaches is the teaching of Jesus Himself since Jesus said, 'whoever hears you hears me'." The Catholic Church itself says in the Catechism of itself (#87): Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”, The faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms." IF self declares that self is unaccountable and that self is exempt from the issue of truthfulness, then the entire issue of norming (and the embraced norma normans in such) becomes irrelevant (for self). The issue has been changed from truth to power (claimed by self for self).
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Acts 15:15-19 mentions no other rule, but those verses are not the whole of the passage, and you know this. I could ask you, "Where does Acts 15:28-29 mention Scripture as a rule?"1. I don't think you read what I posted. Let me re-post such in hopes that you might read it:2. Where does Acts 15:15-19 mention any other rule and quote from such? What is the only rule mentioned and quoted? You might address the same in Acts 17:11, the subject of this thread..
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