The Basic Problem With Christianity!

butxifxnot said:

don't make me bring out your words against your lashing! You asked me how physics and the bible aligned. fact. I did so with some Scripture and the Law of Thermodynamics. Fact. that is what I did and all i intended to do with those posts of mine. you are trying to stick it to me that I was trying to validate the bible because it agrees with the LTD. I am not, but just answering your challenge to show in an instance how the bible an physics coincide. now leave it at that concerning my posts please.

Click to expand...

I don't care what you do. "LTD" doesn't validate the Bible anymore than Alice in Wonderland or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea or any other book of the same or similar genre.

I Like to compare my life as a christian to my life as a mother. I know how much heart ache i gave as a child and i know that as long as my child is a child she will do something to pluck my nerve as she grows and learns, I knew this Before i had her. With Todays Society an abortion comes pretty cheap . Call today it's done tomorrow. But I loved her before i had her. I knew her potential before i had her. i knew how we would share thoughts, issues and how i could be there for her as she needs me not for my own personal gain, because she is my child. Adam committed a sin and he was given his reward God gives us all that Choice to choose our reward. You said why din't God make us naturally kinder to each other. Would that be freedom of choice? You said that you are being punished for what someone else did. are you really? You know of your freedom of choice. God said the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. Have you lived your life sin free. Your comparison to prison sentence would be true under one condition. That would be if you lived a perfect life. If You have never sinned in your life and you have lived only to serve him and he said you go to hell anyway. Then I would agree with you comparison But he said repent and he will forgive and remeber it no more so he gave us the freedom we ask for.

Take a stroll with me. Go out to your Garden. If you're like me You might have a pitiful one but in that case lets pretend. You Garden is Blooming. Beatifully filled with Greenery. You've firtallized it and gave it all the miracle grow it needs. One day you go out proud of you garden and You look in between your hostis and your impatients and what do you see weeds. you look between you rose bush and weeds are growing right along with them they are even blooming flowers just like your roses. Now when you started you garden you knew that the weeds were going to try to take over. what do you do?

Do you go to your closest lowes buy some weed be gone and spray the Garden and kill all the weed along with your precious garden?

Do you let it grow as it is and when your freinds come over and say bettylou your garden is awesome what kind of plants are those? You make up some exotic name for the weeds and tell them its some kind of tropical plant only you can get.

Do you not bother with planting a garden because you dont want to bothered with the trouble

or do you plant it, fertilize it, water, take care of it, train them in the way they should go and when the weeds come up you get out in you garden on your knees and pluck them bad boys out one at a time.

Well i believe you got my point God loves us and he wants to give us the freedom of choice we want . So he sent his son not to fix a mix up but because he know as with children once he gives us that freedom we want its going to go our heads and we will mess up so to prevent us from eternal damnation he came down to die not only for those who have sinned but for those who will sin. He has provided a way of escape but it's your freedom of choice. Will you take it?

Love Ya!

Dear bmoynihan,you had some good answers,may I give you one more version?God knew that Adam would be disobedient to Him,that is why He decreed that after Jesus,men and women could only come back to Him of their OWN FREE CHOICE.God also knew,that men and women would become such slaves to Sin and Sinning,that He allowed them many years,before they would cry out to Him for help.Jesus,part of God Himself,lived on earth for 33 years,to show us the way back to the Father again,He died and took all our past sins away for ever,He freed us to start with a clean conscience.Being human and living in an imperfect world we will still sin,but now we can repent and ask Jesus to help us to change.God loves us and He wants our love and our absolute Loyalty.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

light-bringer said:

Someone who is imperfect will create an imperfect being (us)

Click to expand...

I am so saddened by your misunderstanding. The what you see in this life is causing you to put the blame on the innocent. God created man. I don't know about you, but I'm glad I'm alive . God is so perfect that unlike us, he follows his own rules. He does that to be what he says he is; (Faithfull).If He didn't do what he said he would do, He would be a God that we could'nt trust, because we would be afraid that he might not keep his word. Sin was man's decision,and by a Universal Law that was set up long before man got here; Man had to suffer the consequences of his decision. (we all suffer the consequences of our own decisions everyday) God also warned us not to take that route before we toke it. Is God not good because he gave us freedom to make our own decisions
I would say no. Any one that loves you would let you be free. God also promises a perfect world without any imperfections in our next life if we choose to follow his instructions, believe, and put our trust in Him.
I challenge you to try him.

Dear Linden,I enjoyed reading your message,thank you.I would dearly like to know where I can find that Jehovah Elohim in the Old Testament refers to the second person in the Trinity.Is it perhaps in the Torah? No one here seems to know.Did the Israelites believe in a Trinity,just like Christians do? I would be grateful to you,if you could let me know.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

trinity = father (god), son (jesus), and holy spirit.

the song "i lift your name" (i think thats what its called) it says

"i life your name, your holy name.
Jehovah God Elohim.
How great...."

is jehovah another name for god? or what does elohim mean. is it repeating the word god 3 times just using different names?

bmoynihan said:

If God is all knowing then he not only knows what has been but also what is to be, that’s what Christians believe, right?

Click to expand...

Some of them. Not all. The Bible says that God is very powerful and very knowing. That got extrapolated to the idea that God is all knowing. But it is not necessary to Christianity that God is all-knowing, and you have pointed out several problems with the concept.

Ok so when God created the heavens, the earth and Man he knew that man would turn against him. He made us this way! So why did he bother with what happened in the old testament? Why bother with Moses and the Jews if he knew that they wouldn’t be able to get to heaven that way?

Click to expand...

That's one of the problems with omniscience. Are you honestly asking, or making an atheist apologetics argument here?

Moses and the Jews were the first intervention of God into human history. It is where God first revealed Himself. Exodus happened before Genesis 1-3 was written. I see you are interpreting Genesis 2-3 literally. But it wasn't meant to be read literally. Discard the literal interpretation and read it how it was meant to be read and the problem disappears.

Jesus’ birth happened quite recently, so what happened to the souls of the people who died before Jesus was born? Is it fair that just because God had not decided to send Jesus yet that they should go to hell?

Click to expand...

That presumes that people who aren't Christians go to hell. Again, that is a minority view within Christianity. And it is presumptive of us to decide for God who goes to hell and who doesn't. Jesus is a sure route to God, but that doesn't mean Jesus has to be the only route. The problem you mention applies to American Indians and others who lived and died before they heard about Christianity.

Or maybe God could have just made us naturally kind and nice to each other.

Click to expand...

If God does this, then we don't have any free will. Not only are we puppets but our lives have no meaning. Our choices are such that we can only do what God wants. So what is the meaning of agonizing over the "right" choice if God manipulates us to make it anyway. God is love. A control freak like you describe is not showing love; he is demonstrating power and control.

Genesis 2-3 is an attempt by the people to explain why they are cut off from God. In other places in the OT, they realize they can't blame a father for the sins of the sons, or sons for the sin of the father. No, Jesus died for our sins. Each of us sins, and not because of Adam and Eve. Because each of us, in our selfishness, disobeys God. In trying to explain Judaism to Gentiles, Paul unfortunately set up a confusion that you have.

newlite said:

trinity = father (god), son (jesus), and holy spirit.

the song "i lift your name" (i think thats what its called) it says

"i life your name, your holy name.
Jehovah God Elohim.
How great...."

is jehovah another name for god? or what does elohim mean. is it repeating the word god 3 times just using different names?

Click to expand...

Jehovah is the Latin form of "Yahweh" or "yhwh", which is Hebrew for "I am". Elohim is the Hebrew plural for "god". So, translated literally, it is "gods".

The Judeo-Christian deity has no "name". The closest is "Yahweh", which is the response of the burning bush to Moses: "I am that I am". The Hebrews are faced with the problem of referring to their God as distinct from the gods worshipped by their neighbors without using a name. Tough problem. So they use "yahweh" sometimes and "elohim" as "Lord" other times.

Later people, not understanding the subtleties of Hebrew, or Latin, make the confusing song lyrics you have above.

Emmy said:

Dear Linden,I enjoyed reading your message,thank you.I would dearly like to know where I can find that Jehovah Elohim in the Old Testament refers to the second person in the Trinity.Is it perhaps in the Torah? No one here seems to know.Did the Israelites believe in a Trinity,just like Christians do? I would be grateful to you,if you could let me know.Sincere greetings from Emmy,a sister in Christ.

Click to expand...

I'd like to see the verses, too. Emmy, the Jews did not then and do not now believe in Trinity. Trinity was invented in the period 100-300 AD. The Christians of the time faced the question: I am saved by Jesus. What does Jesus have to be in order for me to be saved by him?

They decided that Jesus needed to be fully human and fully divine. There are numerous verses equating Jesus to the son and God to the Holy Spirit, but none equating Jesus to the Holy Spirit. However, based on their experience, the early Christians felt Trinity was correct and eventually convinced most of their fellow Christians. Today, Jehovan's Witnesses are theological descendents of those that did not accept Trinity.

lucaspa said:

I'd like to see the verses, too. Emmy, the Jews did not then and do not now believe in Trinity. Trinity was invented in the period 100-300 AD. {snip} However, based on their experience, the early Christians felt Trinity was correct and eventually convinced most of their fellow Christians. Today, Jehovan's Witnesses are theological descendents of those that did not accept Trinity.

Click to expand...

Actually, nothing could be further from the truth !! Moses indeed believe in the Triunity of God and he wrote the Torah (see Genesis 1 where the Persons of the Trinity are mentioned (eg. God speaking to God) See also other places in Genesis where there are theophanies (1 example is Genesis 18 - some Biblical scholars believe the 3 men mentioned are the three Persons of the Godhead - a position i don't personally believe because it clearly states 2 were angelic beings and the other was the pre-Incarnate God (Christ)) There are other verses in the OT where all 3 Persons of the Trinity are mentioned together in the same verse AND show that each Person mentioned is God without a shadow of doubt.

If Trinity was not true - the words of the Apostle John would be false -

John 1:18 No man hath seen God (the Father) at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Moses conversed and fellowshipped with God yet it was not the Person of the Father he seen, in all His glory but He did see a Person of the Elohim or Godhead (namely the pre-Incarnate God the Son, the Word of God)

The concept of the trinity IS indeed Jewish - the Jews of the OT and of Jesus day understood it. The Zohar and the Targums PROVE it !


Ray


P.S. There are other threads on the Trinity i've contributed to in more detail - see my profile for more Scriptural backing.