The Basic Problem With Christianity!

Does anyone else notice that this is turning in to more of an arguement than a debate. If y'all are going to discuss things, than please for everyone's sake use some sort of textual proof (Bible hopefully, or otherwise) so others can at least follow and participate. If not, then I think all it is is an argument to see whose right. If that's the case, then according to the Bible, (IMHO) you are both acting like fools (Sybaris & Butxifxnot).

0be1 said:

Does anyone else notice that this is turning in to more of an arguement than a debate. If y'all are going to discuss things, than please for everyone's sake use some sort of textual proof (Bible hopefully, or otherwise) so others can at least follow and participate. If not, then I think all it is is an argument to see whose right. If that's the case, then according to the Bible, (IMHO) you are both acting like fools (Sybaris & Butxifxnot).

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Excellent!

Without solicitation you have characterized the essence of the thread title.

0be1 said:

Does anyone else notice that this is turning in to more of an arguement than a debate. If y'all are going to discuss things, than please for everyone's sake use some sort of textual proof (Bible hopefully, or otherwise) so others can at least follow and participate. If not, then I think all it is is an argument to see whose right. If that's the case, then according to the Bible, (IMHO) you are both acting like fools (Sybaris & Butxifxnot).

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good point (minus the according to the bible part ). and sybaris, that was unnecessary. that was not a dodge. i merely said that question was not really necessary for my and midge's posts. but I will gladly talk about it (and I have, if you were too busy mocking me to notice)

butxifxnot said:

The bible doesn't speak against physics. save some miracles

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it's not as if the bible is anti-science. nothing in the bible prohibits gaining knowledge to better humanity. (trying to use science's limited knowledge as pop-shots at God's word is another thing, but they get turned away in the end anyway )

The bible is not a science book, and I won't act as if it were, but there are some definate scientific proofs in it. One of which is in Genesis. after creation, it says that God's creative work was finished. that word was used in the sense that the action was final and was never again to occur. here you have the First Law of Thermodynamics. (Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed). Then you have places in the bible were it also mentions the earth wearing out. this is the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

I have demonstred what you asked. happy now?

The old and often maligned TD argument, doesn't apply in non closed systems and you have no evidence that your God has finished creating anything or that the earth will wear out.

Sybaris said:

The old and often maligned TD argument,

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TD? I am not familiar with it...

doesn't apply in non closed systems and you have no evidence that your God has finished creating anything or that the earth will wear out.

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i will refute your comment with bible and science. God has told us He is finished creating. He has also told us in His word that the earth is wearing out. Both are accepted theories of physics. the first and second laws of thermodynamics say that energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed and all systems, when no work is put in, tend to become less organized respectively. This will result in a theoretical 'heat death' in which all energy will eventually be converted to the unusuble form of heat. Now, God tells us He will return before this happens, but if the universe were left to itself, it would 'wear out'.

butxifxnot said:

TD? I am not familiar with it...
i will refute your comment with bible and science. God has told us He is finished creating. He has also told us in His word that the earth is wearing out. Both are accepted theories of physics. the first and second laws of thermodynamics say that energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed and all systems, when no work is put in, tend to become less organized respectively. This will result in a theoretical 'heat death' in which all energy will eventually be converted to the unusuble form of heat. Now, God tells us He will return before this happens, but if the universe were left to itself, it would 'wear out'.

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TD = Thermodynamics.

Your rebuttal is based on myth and theory, no evidence. Anyway, it's folly to use the term "law" due to the evolving knowledge of the process.

Sybaris said:

TD = Thermodynamics.

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thank you

Your rebuttal is based on myth and theory, no evidence.

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'myth' would be bible and 'theory' would be law. gotcha.

Anyway, it's folly to use the term "law" due to the evolving knowledge of the process.

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It is called the Law of Thermodynamics. I did not name it; that is what it is called. the bible is not a myth, although you can call it that if you want. and, as i said, the Law of Thermodynamics is a law, not a theory. a law is an observation, while a theory is a possible explanation of 'how' something works. I have quoted a law of physics and the bible and how they are both in harmony with each other, as you have requested. I am in line. any other questions?

butxifxnot said:

'myth' would be bible

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yes, it is

butxifxnot said:

the bible is not a myth

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make up your mind

butxifxnot said:

the Law of Thermodynamics is a law, not a theory.

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Who said it was a theory?

butxifxnot said:

I have quoted a law of physics and the bible and how they are both in harmony with each other.

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That's a popular notion among fundies but falls short due to the earth being in a open system.

Sorry

Sybaris said:

yes, it is

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dude, you must be joking

make up your mind

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notice the ' ' around where I was quoting you. got me?

Who said it was a theory?

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you did

sybaris said:

Your rebuttal is based on myth and theory

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i said that where you say 'myth' i understood you referred to my reference to the bible. and I said that where you said 'theory' you referred to the TD. now, since you yourself questioned how the bible and physics aligned, and I have answered it, why are you still pushing it?

That's a popular notion among fundies but falls short due to the earth being in a open system.

Sorry

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that has nothing to do with it. the universe is a 'closed' system, as the universe equals all of space as we know it. it is very applicable. and even for open systems, if no work is put into it, it will 'pass away'.

PS. please read over what you are quoting and make sure it is appropriate for what your comment is. thanks

butxifxnot said:

you have places in the bible were it also mentions the earth wearing out. this is the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

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butxifxnot said:

that has nothing to do with it. the universe is a 'closed' system, as the universe equals all of space as we know it. it is very applicable. and even for open systems, if no work is put into it, it will 'pass away'.

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Don't flip-flop on me son. You went from the earth system to the universe system as I knew you would 'cause your statement doesn't fit.

Gotta love those fundies who'll agree with science as long as it agrees with their Bible book.

Typical

It is called the Law of Thermodynamics. I did not name it; that is what it is called. the bible is not a myth, although you can call it that if you want. and, as i said, the Law of Thermodynamics is a law, not a theory. a law is an observation, while a theory is a possible explanation of 'how' something works. I have quoted a law of physics and the bible and how they are both in harmony with each other, as you have requested. I am in line. any other questions?

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Let me help you, the Bible is not a Myth it is a Book of Legends and Tales. Something like a prehistoric (BCE) Plato. Some of it's Tales can be proved others can't. The one thing in common with all of them is a God figure. That is where the debate lies. Is God real or is God a Celestial Hitler made up by confused men...As for my thought on the Subject....I wouldn't want a God who is so demanding that he would burn his children for eternity for the freewill he basically gave them (him being ominiscient and know Eve would take the dang apple). Anyway....Continue to...uh...discuss?

Blessed Be

bt_st_At said:

Let me help you, the Bible is not a Myth it is a Book of Legends and Tales. Something like a prehistoric (BCE) Plato. Some of it's Tales can be proved others can't. The one thing in common with all of them is a God figure. That is where the debate lies. Is God real or is God a Celestial Hitler made up by confused men...As for my thought on the Subject....I wouldn't want a God who is so demanding that he would burn his children for eternity for the freewill he basically gave them (him being ominiscient and know Eve would take the dang apple). Anyway....Continue to...uh...discuss?

Blessed Be

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My sentiments exactly

Thing is about the recent posts by butxifxnot he's validating the book of tales with a "law" which is mixing apples and oranges. I'm sure I could find thermodynamic examples in Alice in Wonderland but that doesn't make it any more true.

bt_st_At said:

{snip} As for my thought on the Subject....I wouldn't want a God who is so demanding that he would burn his children for eternity for the freewill he basically gave them (him being ominiscient and know Eve would take the dang apple). Anyway....Continue to...uh...discuss? Blessed Be

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Actually you err believing you (and other unbelievers) are God's children. The Bible says otherwise -

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

There are only two classes of people according to the Bible - children of God by faith in and obedience to Christ and children of the devil, who delight in unrighteousness.

I guess you would rather be a robot, without the choice of whether you will believe in/obey God. Just because God knew Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit DOESN'T mean He ordained it to be so before she ate it, nor was He setting her up to fail - He just gave her opportunity to excercise her free will to obey or not out of His perfect love.

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried."
- G.K. Chesterton

Methinks you need to look to the Cross, see the One who suffered and why and for who He did so -

The central event around which all of human history revolves was about to unfold. God would take the mass of guilty, blood-soaked sin which had accumulated against His people and place it on the body of His beloved Son. But that's barely half of it. This One who had never known anything except the presence, fellowship, and communion of God would be heard to cry out, "My God, My God! Why hast though forsaken me?!!" This One who had lived as eternal spirit had taken on a body which would be so racked with pain that Isaiah would declare, "His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men" (Isaiah 52:14). His body was torn and distorted as God poured out the cup of Holy wrath. He was beaten, bruised, and abused by men and God. As it loomed before Him, He feared. The more amazing side of this story, though, is that He knew it was coming. He cried out to the one who could save Him, "if it be possible, let this cup pass from me." Yet, He submitted Himself. You're not getting it...I'll say it again... Yet, He submitted Himself!!! In humility and obedience to the will of His Father, knowing the horror that lay ahead of Him, our eternal Priest acquiesced, "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Charles Spurgeon, Hebrews commentary

It is when we come to the Cross do our protestations about a so-called unfair, unjust God become meaningless, empty and vain words. It is here we see the greatest example of God's love ever demonstrated !


Ray

Athanasian Creed said:

I guess you would rather be a robot

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If you didn't have free will would you know it?

At any rate, the problem with Christianity is that Jesus spoke of Noah's flood which didn't happen therefore Jesus was only going by what he heard or read, not by any supernatural cognition. There may have been a "holy man" named Jesus but only martyrd himself as a common charlatan.

Sybaris said:

If you didn't have free will would you know it?

At any rate, the problem with Christianity is that Jesus spoke of Noah's flood which didn't happen therefore Jesus was only going by what he heard or read, not by any supernatural cognition. There may have been a "holy man" named Jesus but only martyrd himself as a common charlatan.

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No but i wouldn't also know the joy that comes from following God because i choose too not because i'm forced.

Jesus wasn't going by "what he heard or read" He existed from eternity as the Lord God almighty, one God with the Father and the Spirit - it was He that spoke to Noah to build the ark and it was He that sent the Flood to destroy the earth. Jesus, therefore, spoke first hand about not only the surety of the Flood but of the creation of the heavens & the earth, Adam & Eve since it was He, again, that is the Creator of ALL things, both in heaven & on earth !!!


Ray

Athanasian Creed said:

No but i wouldn't also know the joy that comes from following God because i choose too not because i'm forced.

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In that case it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't know if you were missing any fabricated joy.

Athanasian Creed said:

Jesus wasn't going by "what he heard or read" He existed from eternity as the Lord God almighty, one God with the Father and the Spirit - it was He that spoke to Noah to build the ark and it was He that sent the Flood to destroy the earth. Jesus, therefore, spoke first hand about not only the surety of the Flood but of the creation of the heavens & the earth, Adam & Eve since it was He, again, that is the Creator of ALL things, both in heaven & on earth !!!
Ray

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I can speak first hand of it too, doesn't mean it happened.

bmoynihan said:

If God is all knowing then he not only knows what has been but also what is to be, that’s what Christians believe, right?



Ok so when God created the heavens, the earth and Man he knew that man would turn against him. He made us this way! So why did he bother with what happened in the old testament? Why bother with Moses and the Jews if he knew that they wouldn’t be able to get to heaven that way?



Jesus’ birth happened quite recently, so what happened to the souls of the people who died before Jesus was born? Is it fair that just because God had not decided to send Jesus yet that they should go to hell?



Or maybe God could have just made us naturally kind and nice to each other. No original sin, but still with the option to turn against him if we wanted. Seams a very strange thing for a god to send a imperfect creation to the earth, knowing they would mess it up, and then sending a ‘fix’ in the form of him son to fix Gods error!

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Hello there!

I can understand what you mean, it seems illogical for an all-knowing God to create a world that he knew would end up a mess, but can I suggest something.

When we turn to the first page in the bible [after the introduction etc lol] we read that

"In the beginning God created the heavens and earth" [Genesis 1:1]

Interesting? Well, turn a few more books and you come to one in the New Testiment called John, and at the start of that we read

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." {John 1:1-4]

Woaw! Now there is something! The Word is Jesus, now read that again with 'Jesus' instead of 'the Word'. It is through Jesus that all things are made. Now think of this.
The Godhead comes together and decides to create the earth and create mankind, mankind a freeminded people who God can love and love and have a friendship with. But God knew that when he did this that years later he would have to send himself, his son Jesus to die as a living sacrifice for man, the Godhead would be torn, God would go through pain and suffering, unimaginable. In knowledge of this, God creates the world.

Why did God create the world when he knew the situation of sin, because he knew the situation of his death and still went ahead, because of one thing, love. Love for you me and the world.


As for those under the Mosaic Law, well in Ephesians we read that

"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Whatever way you want to interpret that we can possibly say that those captives include the jews. The Jews went to a place called paradise, or Abrahams bossom. When Christ died, we could speculate that he took them with him to the Fathers throne, and they are there today.

bt_st_At said:

Let me help you, the Bible is not a Myth it is a Book of Legends and Tales. Something like a prehistoric (BCE) Plato. Some of it's Tales can be proved others can't. The one thing in common with all of them is a God figure. That is where the debate lies. Is God real or is God a Celestial Hitler made up by confused men...As for my thought on the Subject....I wouldn't want a God who is so demanding that he would burn his children for eternity for the freewill he basically gave them (him being ominiscient and know Eve would take the dang apple). Anyway....Continue to...uh...discuss?

Blessed Be

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ah. that would be idolatry, to make up a God in your mind to suit your self.

Sybaris said:

My sentiments exactly

Thing is about the recent posts by butxifxnot he's validating the book of tales with a "law" which is mixing apples and oranges. I'm sure I could find thermodynamic examples in Alice in Wonderland but that doesn't make it any more true.

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my goodness! don't make me bring out your words against your lashing! You asked me how physics and the bible aligned. fact. I did so with some Scripture and the Law of Thermodynamics. Fact. that is what I did and all i intended to do with those posts of mine. you are trying to stick it to me that I was trying to validate the bible because it agrees with the LTD. I am not, but just answering your challenge to show in an instance how the bible an physics coincide. now leave it at that concerning my posts please.

hmmm..interesting...bugs me, but interesting.

I don't like being the child of Satan because I don't believe in such a thing and the idea of such a creature makes me wonder about the pessimists mind...

butxifxnot when it comes to creating your own God their isn't anything wrong with it. Just don't expect the God of your own creation to start sending others from other religions to an imaginary place of damnation because he/she has no right to do such a thing.

Athanasian Creed said:

I guess you would rather be a robot, without the choice of whether you will believe in/obey God.

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You all wish to be with God and then you go and say stuff like this...This is why you are hypocrits. I would much rather be a robot and be with God then not be a robot and go to hell. Thank you very much. You would think in this state of mind that God would have wanted what was best for me but no instead he gives me some guy who may or may not have exsisted and says if you don't believe in him then you can just die because I disown you...Thank you very much God of Jehovah don't let the door hit you on the way out of my life...Do you guys get the picture yet. It's not worth it, not worth believing infact it's a sad idea to believe in the first place.

Athanasian Creed said:

Methinks you need to look to the Cross, see the One who suffered and why and for who He did so -

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Just to let you know the Cross was around more than you know before Christ just because Christians stole it for their own purposes doesn't mean it wasn't a Pagan Icon before. Yes we were the first to us it to mark graves, for that purpose to MARK them, and then you had the torture aspect of it. I will not look at your cross and see "One who suffered" I will look at it and see a stolen history, and in some cases such as the Catholic Church a Morbid sence of Holiness from a man hanging from such a object dead and bleeding.