The Basic Problem With Christianity!

vossler said:

Can't say that I would. Is there anyone who hasn't experienced a level of pain and hardship? I believe we all have or will so why come back as anything other than beautiful, healthy, rich, etc. If your saying you would then you are not being honest!

All of which clearly shows we only live once! Thank God for that!

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Oh but I am, and doubt I'm the only one. You cannot know joy without hardship. Maybe you would be content with a never ending boring eternity, but I would not. Also, not all beautiful, healthy, rich people are happy.

Deus said:

Maybe you would be content with a never ending boring eternity, but I would not. Also, not all beautiful, healthy, rich people are happy.

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Good point

"Heaven" kinda lacks freedom of choice.

Deus said:

Oh but I am, and doubt I'm the only one. You cannot know joy without hardship. Maybe you would be content with a never ending boring eternity, but I would not. Also, not all beautiful, healthy, rich people are happy.

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Well I wish you luck in your next life, whatever that may be.

Sybaris said:

"Heaven" kinda lacks freedom of choice.

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Does it? where is you evidence for that?

Heaven is an environment with different rules or laws from this one (I'm thinking of physics rather than moral ones). The choices we can make may be different but possible. There may be many more choices than "hell" for example.

With all eternity to explore an infinite God if not space there should be plenty to do. Plus there would be many, many others to meet. We have to hink outside of the confines of this material world, or out side the box.

bmoynihan said:

Ok so when God created the heavens, the earth and Man he knew that man would turn against him. He made us this way! So why did he bother with what happened in the old testament? Why bother with Moses and the Jews if he knew that they wouldn’t be able to get to heaven that way?



Jesus’ birth happened quite recently, so what happened to the souls of the people who died before Jesus was born? Is it fair that just because God had not decided to send Jesus yet that they should go to hell?



Or maybe God could have just made us naturally kind and nice to each other. No original sin, but still with the option to turn against him if we wanted. Seams a very strange thing for a god to send a imperfect creation to the earth, knowing they would mess it up, and then sending a ‘fix’ in the form of him son to fix Gods error!

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Two things: first of all the reason God created man was so that He could have relationship with us. Now if we were completely unable to dislike or turn against God then our love wouldn't mean anything because we would be unable to do anything else. This is why God gave us free choice, even though it meant giving us the ability to screw up (as we did).

Second thing: Hebrews 11:13 says "These all [who came before Christ] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them." Those who died in faith before Christ did not go to hell, but simply to a place outside of heaven called Paradise, from which they were released when Christ died.

// edit // I didn't realize the thread had five pages, oops lol

The Midge said:

"Heaven" kinda lacks freedom of choice.
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Does it? where is you evidence for that?

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TO be with god we cannot sin to not sin means there is no choice between good and evil to choose between good and good is not really a choice at all so therefore we would have no freewill

bt_st_At said:

TO be with god we cannot sin to not sin means there is no choice between good and evil to choose between good and good is not really a choice at all so therefore we would have no freewill

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You forget the nature of God and His children.
God HATES sin and His children are made to hate sin as well, not completely, in this life, but that is our hope to come, as children of God, in heaven.
When I sin , I hate it.
Why would the child of God or God Himself want to "choose" evil, that which He hates ?

You do know that most people actually love to "sin" don't you? Morals are one thing, sins are another.

Deus said:

You do know that most people actually love to "sin" don't you? Morals are one thing, sins are another.

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And why is it that people "love to sin". Is it because of their insecurities? because of rejection? Is it to belittle someone else, or hurt them, and to make oneself feel inferior? I am sure that you can give us many reasons on why, but as for me and some of my truly sorry esteemed collegues, we hate it when we sin. We do not like that nature, and even though we cannot conquer sin in this world, God can, and someday will. I know that a lot of you think that we may be a lot of narrow minded hopefuls, but all I can say is "PRAISE GOD FOR LOVING US AND SAVING THOSE WHO BELIEVE!" And for those of you who don't, that's ok too, because a lot of us have been where you are / might be at, and God has changed us and he can someday you to. And we lovvvvvvvvvve to pray for the salvation of people such as yourselves.

BTW, since you like Einstein (which btw had some Christian background) here are some others for you.

God is subtle, but he is not malicious.

A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the resta kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

Before God we are all equally wise - equally foolish.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slightest details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds.

There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.

Thanks for some inspiration (GRIN)

In His Peace...

You have to realize that people have different ideas about what a "sin" is. Depending on where you live, or how you grew up. You might think that killing a bug is ok, others may not. I may think killing a person is wrong, others may not. Some people do things they that are wrong knowingly and that will be thier downfall. I am content with not knowing everything, I will seek knowledge during my lifetime, as will others. You should know that others can be as sure of thier beliefs as you are yours.

And yes, I am an admirer of Einstein, he was an amazing genious that was still able to admit to not having all of the answers.
Here are some other quotes of interest.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions,
a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a
personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.
If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the
unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
science can reveal it." Neither can I believe that
the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls
harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms
"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions
of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own
creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality
has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.
Morality is of the highest
importance -- but for us, not for God."

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a
will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I
want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble
souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with
the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of
the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted
striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that
manifests itself in nature."

Deus said:

You do know that most people actually love to "sin" don't you? Morals are one thing, sins are another.

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Of course they do. The "unregenerated" man LOVES sin, LOVES the creature more than the creator. Your statement is biblical.

bt_st_At said:

TO be with god we cannot sin to not sin means there is no choice between good and evil to choose between good and good is not really a choice at all so therefore we would have no freewill

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Can't we?

Mt 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (NIV)

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Emphasis added.

The Midge said:

Can't we?

Emphasis added.

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What an excellent contradiction you have pointed out. Coming straight from the bible.

Why is it that we cannot be with God because we sin. If we are allowed to be with God and allowed to sin then the Bible is false in saying that we are not allowed to be with God because we sin.

This contradiction makes the Bible False seeing how it is gods word it makes God False finally the truth comes out...

The Midge said:

Heaven is an environment with different rules or laws from this one (I'm thinking of physics rather than moral ones).

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Is it? Where is your evidence for that?

bt_st_At said:

What an excellent contradiction you have pointed out. Coming straight from the bible.

Why is it that we cannot be with God because we sin. If we are allowed to be with God and allowed to sin then the Bible is false in saying that we are not allowed to be with God because we sin.

This contradiction makes the Bible False seeing how it is gods word it makes God False finally the truth comes out...

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excellent evidence of people taking parts of the bible out of context and using it as an excuse to remain in sin. read the bible to see if what you are saying is really accurate.

Sybaris said:

Is it? Where is your evidence for that?

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well, nothing outside of the bible, if that is what you are saying...

but since the biblical concept of heaven is the topic here, the bible is plenty evidence.

butxifxnot said:

well, nothing outside of the bible, if that is what you are saying...

but since the biblical concept of heaven is the topic here, the bible is plenty evidence.

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I guess it was your reference to physics that threw me off.

Please demonstrate how the the Bible and physics are complentary of each other.

Sybaris said:

I guess it was your reference to physics that threw me off.

Please demonstrate how the the Bible and physics are complentary of each other.

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? i was not the one to say that. and the topic that you question is about the physics in heaven being different than the physics of this earth. according to the bible, they will be different. that is easy to see.

now, if i understand you correct, you are questioning how physics is comparable with the bible. I suppose this is an okay thread for that, but that question isn't really needed for this string of comments.

The bible doesn't speak against physics. save some miracles

butxifxnot said:

now, if i understand you correct, you are questioning how physics is comparable with the bible. I suppose this is an okay thread for that, but that question isn't really needed for this string of comments.

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Good dodge.