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I did not come up with the idea of calling the atonement sacrifice a ransom payment, Jesus called it that, Peter called it that, john called it that, Paul called it that and the Hebrew writer called it that. Is this unbelievable huge ransom payment like a tax or a fine paid by the offender, is it like some reasonable purchase price for a slave, or is it like the greatest payment you could make to an underserving criminal kidnapper?
This is not a judge (God) collecting a payment of Christ being tortured, humiliated and cruelly murdered.
All popular theories of atonement have huge issues, but you can figure it out with the help of the Spirit. Atonement is easier experienced than it is explained, so what did you go through when atonement took place for you?
Did Adam and Eve fulfill their objective by sinning?
This brings up another huge topic:
The Bible does not refer to Adam and Eve’s first sin as a “fall”, especially a fall for all mankind.
Man’s “nature” would not have to change form Adam and Eve’s nature for all mature adults to sin. Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had and with only one way to sin, while mature adults have a tone of different ways to sin (the result of having the knowledge of good and evil written on their hearts [conscience]).
What was man's earthly objective?We should be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation to show us and them a ton of stuff including the fact the Garden situation is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
Agreed.When my children first sinned, I did not see it as a “fall”, but a transition and maturing.
Oh for goodness sake.You are adding a necessary work (performance) for salvation, the necessary work of a feeling response.
That is contra-NT gospel.
(I meant Penal Substitution of course, not Institution)Thank you for sharing.
What I was referring to was your experience being something similar to what those 3000 on Pentecost.
Acts 2: 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
When we come to the realization that our sins cause the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ, we experience a death blow to our hearts (the worst feeling we can have and live. We empathically experience (like Paul said he did) being crucified with Christ. The only thing allowing us to go on is the fact the greatest Love is being shown us at the same time.
“God works in the disposition giving one to prefer his will” which would also mean God intentional does not work with some people resulting in them, not prefering God’s will. It is not man’s free will choice if the man, God works on, cannot choose to do otherwise. This is taking man’s one significant free will choice ability away from him resulting in man making a God programmed choice, it is direct cause and effect with God being the cause and not man.Man's will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by the disposition (what one prefers or dislikes).
God works in the disposition giving one to prefer his will, and that is what one freely and willingly chooses because one prefers it.
God doe not violate man's free will, God uses man's free will to bring men to himself.
This brings up another huge topic:
The Bible does not refer to Adam and Eve’s first sin as a “fall”, especially a fall for all mankind.
Man’s “nature” would not have to change form Adam and Eve’s nature for all mature adults to sin. Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had and with only one way to sin, while mature adults have a tone of different ways to sin (the result of having the knowledge of good and evil written on their hearts [conscience]).
We should be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation to show us and them a ton of stuff including the fact the Garden situation is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
When my children first sinned, I did not see it as a “fall”, but a transition and maturing.
I am only addressing the atonement sacrifice as being at best similar to an unbelievable huge King's ransom payment, like we find in a kidnapping scenario and not like in the other definitions of a ransom payment. The atonement ransom fits a kidnapping ransom. You also have a child set free, the Father making a huge sacrifice in the payment, and of course the undeserving kidnapper holding the child out of the Kingdom away from the father.Agreed. . .but you did come up with the idea that ransom necessarily means kidnapper, when in Scripture is means "to "buy back, to redeem," particularly in reference to slavery.
Feelings are not "works" by God and the Bible's definition of work. You can use the Bible definition of work, as being things you could not do on the Sabbath.You are adding a necessary work (performance) for salvation, the necessary work of a feeling response.
That is contra-NT gospel.
God's objective is never to have anyone sin, but God allows people to sin, which can help some people in turning toward God. God temps no one, so all these opportunities before us to sin, are also opportunities for success and our not sinning.bling
How about they fulfilled Gods objective Purpose by sinning ? Do you believe that?
I am only addressing the atonement sacrifice as being at best similar to an unbelievable huge King's ransom payment, like we find in a kidnapping scenario and not like in the other definitions of a ransom payment. The atonement ransom fits a kidnapping ransom. You also have a child set free, the Father making a huge sacrifice in the payment, and of course the undeserving kidnapper holding the child out of the Kingdom away from the father.
Feelings are not "works" by God and the Bible's definition of work. You can use the Bible definition of work, as being things you could not do on the Sabbath.
You dont know God then.God's objective is never to have anyone sin, but God allows people to sin, which can help some people in turning toward God. God temps no one, so all these opportunities before us to sin, are also opportunities for success and our not sinning.
I like your thinking, but take it a step further:I don't know why we call it the fall.
A fall from grace?
But that wouldn't be true since God still bestows His grace on us.
Maybe just falling from a relationship that man had with God...
falling from a high pirch to the condition we're in today?
This can be a huge subject, but briefly:So you believe Adam and Eve had the sin nature?
Or do you mean that their nature was sufficiently imperfect to making sinning possible?
Agreed to mature adults having more ways to sin.
Adam and Eve had only disobedience because that is what God wanted from them: obedience.
God does not make mistakes; the Garden was a great learning experience for Adam and Eve plus all of us.What was man's earthly objective?
Did God make a mistake by putting them in the Garden?
GoodAgreed.
I expected the sinning and hoped they'd realize one day what they were TRULY doing.
Kids don't really understand sinning till a later age - maybe 11, 12 or so.
Does former sins help some people to turn to God?"Fall" is used often in Scripture to mean loss of God's favor and grace, which was precisely what happened in Eden.
Wow! . . .that is seriously contra-NT.
I do not doubt we have different ideas about God, so does your ideas include God being a totally unselfish Lover?You dont know God then.
Correct James tells us when we are tempted to sin that it doesn't come from God for He cannot and does not tempt anyone to sin.God's objective is never to have anyone sin, but God allows people to sin, which can help some people in turning toward God. God temps no one, so all these opportunities before us to sin, are also opportunities for success and our not sinning.
his god predetermined before creation to dam most all of humanity in hell while only saving a few when he could of saved all of them. This god determined only those elect one to give them faith and the others never give them a chance to choose otherwise. this is no different than the muslim god of the jihad. an unloving, angry, wrathful god who wages war on all those he condemned before they were born. this false god has no love in him only hate for those he predetermined would be in hell with no choice to believe.I do not doubt we have different ideas about God, so does your ideas include God being a totally unselfish Lover?
Very sketching explanation of atonement. You spend more time on one of the purposes of atonement, namely the forgiveness of sin through faith.Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.
Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)
Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)
Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.
Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV
Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV
The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.
The fallacy of the sufficient for all, efficient for some with the Atonement.
We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.
1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.
Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.
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