The Apostle John's student

We know with church history that the Apostle John (and the others as well) taught disciples that would bishop churches.

[bible]Acts 1:20 And his bishopric let another take.[/bible]

St Ignatius was the 3rd Bishop to serve in Antioch (where the word "christian" was coined) before he was taken to be Martyred. Ignatius was taught by John "the beloved".

Around 100 AD he is known to have written:

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."


Many scholars beleive "Catholic" (which comes from katholikos) was being used in the early 4th quarter of the 1st century.

The Apostle Peter (the vicar of Christ) was the first to be Bishop of Antioch and second was Evodius. The third was Ignatius around 68 AD and it is said (from a report by Theodoret) that St Peter himself appointed Ignatius to the seat in Antioch.



* Comment: We have so much rich history on Christianity and so much we can understand about the Gospels from this history.

God Bless and Peace,

Jack

S Walch said:

I'd like to highlight the words "many" and "believe".

I'd like to contend the "many" part of that phrase, and say only a handful actually believe that.

And I'd also like to say that "believe" isn't scholaristic evidence.

The quest of the scholar is to show with evidence that something was done at a certain time.

What's the evidence that the Greek katholikos (kaqoliko) was being used by many people in the 4th half of the first century to refer to the Church?

Also, the Greek katholikos merely means "universal", and the very brief mention of the word by Ignatius of Antioch isn't exactly proof of the Catholic church (with a capital C).

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The dating is used in the Epistle to the Smyrnaeans by Ignatius around 100 AD (see the following for chapter 8 of this text and use of Catholic). The dating of this Epistle is not contested. The use of Catholic is used in the familiar. So it is an accepted use of the term to name The Church. Scholars then debate how early it may have been used. This led many scholars to conclude it had been used since the early 4th quarter of the first century.

The word Katholikos is where the word Catholic came from as Peter came from Petros. Catholic still denotes the meaning of Universal. So that "Catholic Church" is also "Universal House of God". This is because all the churches were the same church even though they went by different names. Just as all the parts of the body are one body though they go by different names.

Quote:
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the CatholicChurch. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

S Walch said:

Yes, but "catholic" in the small letter "c" sense of the word. A universial church yes, a katholicos.

We could easily translate the passage as:

Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the universal Church.

The capitalising of the "C" for "catholic" is trying to force the English reader, who is used to noting that "Catholic" = Roman Catholic, into believing that Ignatius is talking of the Roman Catholic Church in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, when all he is actually doing is refering to the "universal" church - the entire body of believers.

Seeing as though Ignatius would have written in Koine Greek, and therefore the entire Epistle would have been written in capitalised letters, the conjecture of the translators of the Letter to translate Ignatius' katholicos as "Catholic" is based on the knowledge that the average English reader would automatically assume the Roman Catholic church, rather than translating it as either universal or catholic which would make far much more sense in what Ignatius was saying.

Also, I would contend that catholic isn't technically a translation of the Greek Katholicos, because a translation means you translate the meaning of a word from one language into another.

So, everytime the Greek katholicos is encountered in any Greek text, if the translator was truly just translating the text without forcing any sort of his biased conjecture upon the word, he would always translate it as universal, as that is what the Greek katholicos translated into English means.

"Catholic" and "catholic" are transliterations, not translations.

Obviously, the bias of the translators of the "Ante-Nicene Fathers" volumes in transliterationg katholicos as Catholic shows that the translator, knowing full well how any average English reader who didn't know the Greek text of Ignatius would automatically assume Roman Catholic when reading Catholic.

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I hear what you are saying and see some possibility to your conjecture.

So I think we need to look at Context. If we write something like "WHERE PRESIDENT BUSH IS, SO TO WILL BE THE UNITED STATES".

One could argue that United could actually be united. One would need to know the Context of this and how it is used.

Quote:
"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the CatholicChurch. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

In this quote it seems to me that Catholic (or universal) is being used as a proper name. Similiar is when it says "the Church" the word church seems to be used as a proper noun or to mean more than the church but the Church.

But we can also reference writings for Polycarp who is another that is considered a Father of the Church.

Look at "The Martyrdom of Polycarp" with Chapter 8.

Quote:
"Now, as soon as he had ceased praying, having made mention of all that had at any time come in contact with him, both small and great, illustrious and obscure, as well as the whole CatholicChurch throughout the world, the time of his departure having arrived, they set him upon an ass, and conducted him into the city, the day being that of the great Sabbath."

Here the word Catholic in my opinion is also being used to show an establishment or corporation and needs to be in the form of a proper noun.

Again the context and use of the word for universal is such that it commands something greater than a 'u' and should be a 'U' or Universal.

S Walch said:

But this is all being based on one persons translation of the Greek of Ignatius.

J.B. Lightfoot translates it this way:

[But] shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed
the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to
the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church
apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid
eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he
shall have committed it. Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal Church. It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or to hold a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid.

Obviously, not everyone takes the context to mean that Ignatius is using katholicos as a proper name, and I believe the Greek doesn't call for it either, as I believe the word is being used as an adjective.

I'm not even going to explain the Martyrdom of Polycarp, as we know from the quite obviouse statement by Alexander Roberts of the Ante-Nicene Fathers translators,

That this Epistle (Martyrdom of polycarp) has been interpolated can hardly be doubted. (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1 - Page 37)

The point is, whether it said "Catholic Church" or not originally is not given any sort of degree of certanty.

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I can see your argument and so I can see both sides at this point have credibility with what we discussed.

One more thing to add to this uncertainty of the use of universal/Universal is the history itself. Meaning...

The church at the time of Ignatius was constantly under attack by Romans and heretics and Pagans. This was ongoing. The Universal Church even had some recorded schisms (which I am certain you are aware of). There is no record of any schism that would seperate the modern day Catholic Church from this "universal" church that Ignatius speaks of.

But with all this history the church that holds a continuace line from Peter as Bishop to a Bishop of today is the Catholic Church (Roman Catholic if you will). 264 Bishops in succession if I am not mistaken. If nothing else this also lends credibility to the use of universal in Ignatius writings to be of the intention of a formal name for the universal church and that name was and is "Universal" church or Catholic church.

Doesn't this lend some credibility to universal being "Universal"?

And this is just one more point that I give and I am sure there are more that you could or would agree with.

Rightglory said:

catholic is a description, thus an adjective. The first understanding of the word in church history in the early Church is that each congregation is whole, complete, a perfect example of the Body of Christ, or catholic. This is in line with Matt 20:18 where it speaks of when one or two are gathered IN Christ's Name. The necessary elements to make up the Church here on the earth, the Body of Christ is Christ being represented by the bishop and at least one lay person. A Church cannot exist without Christ is implied, but it also does not exist with only a bishop or only a lay person. It must have both or all three to be more correct. That constitutes a catholic, whole, complete church, the body of Christ.
The second meaning is universal. Today that has become the primary meaning in general usuage but not for the Church. The Roman Catholic, as to theology, is not and never has been catholic. The Church as understood by RCC is first of all an organization, and each congregation is but a very small part of the body. Thus the meaning of universal is more apt and meaningful.

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Sounds good.


The Catholic teaching as quoted.

Quote:

III. The Church Is Catholic

What does "catholic" mean?


830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation" which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:

• All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God's will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one. . . . The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit.

Each particular Church is "catholic"


832 "The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament. . . . In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the Lord's Supper is celebrated. . . . In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted."

833 The phrase "particular church," which is first of all the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession. These particular Churches "are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists."

834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity." "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord."Indeed, "from the incarnate Word's descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior's promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her."

835 "Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she puts down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world." The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches "unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church."

'Rightglory' much of what you say I agree with. I see the wisdom in your words that "We are many but one. Not one of many. We are not united in the bishop or pastor, but united IN Christ." I too agree that as Christians and in accord with Jesus' teachings we become part of Jesus himself. But Jesus is the High Priest and Jesus went to prepare the Kingdom in Heaven for us. Before Jesus left to prepare the kingdom he left us with the Spirit of Truth to protect and guide (a counselor if you will) and he left Peter with the Keys to the Kingdom. These are not symbolic jestures these are divine rights given to man to act in God's stead. So, Jesus left us with Peter and the Apostles who being good Jews maintained the heirarchy that started with Moses.

After all what is our pillar and foundation for the Truth?

mrconstance said:

The vehemence with which he makes this point suggests that he is arguing a point that is under debate. So Ignatius' letters are proof that some of the people who saw themselves as part of the church were not subject to bishops.

Alan

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I think you are correct. I think these Epistles were written with great care because Ignatius knew that it was his last communication with each church. So, Ignatius made the most of each letter to address what was of greatest importance. For each church he addresses different aspects and pointedly commands that they adhere to the Bishop. I think he does this because the Bishop is the representative of Christ and the one given leadership as a Priest by God himself. But each church had people questioning the teachings of the Bishop and were heading for (or already there) heresy.

With the Smyrnaeans here is what Ignatius said in regards to the errors in some of their people:

"Some ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth. These persons neither have the prophets persuaded, nor the law of Moses, nor the Gospel even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured. For they think also the same thing regarding us. For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [truly] possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to [a true belief in] Christ's passion, which is our resurrection"

Rightglory,

We share so much with our faith. There seems to be this point about Peter being the leader and having passed on this seat to others as a contention. I hope to answer some of the reasons for my understanding.

Rightglory said:

He left the Keys to the disciples who became the first Apostles. This authority was given to other apostles and then eventually to the bishops of each Church. It is each bishop that has been entrusted with the keys. Peter had primacy of the disciples but he has no more nor no less authority than any other. That is why the Church developed the collegial understanding of an episcopate. This is why each congregation is a complete, whole Body of Christ. No bishop or congregation is more powerful, or has more authority than any other. They are all equal. Christ is the only Head the Church has needed.

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When I read Matthew 16:18 to 19 Jesus gives the keys to 'thee' and not 'to the disciples'.

Quote:
16:18. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build mychurch, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose...

It goes on to say that Jesus then turn his attention away from Peter and spoke to all the discples.

Quote:
16:20. Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.


As to what is the meaning of the Keys, we will find more of the Old Testament being brought to truth and grace through our Lord Jesus.

Read Isais 22...

Quote:
22:21. And I will clothe him with thy robe, and will strengthen him with thy girdle, and will give thy power into his hand: and he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Juda. 22:22. And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open

Here the Keys are handed over when giving someone plenary control over the kingdom.

Rightglory said:

Yes, and each bishop has that authority. This was the practice and understanding of the early Church and still was at the time of the break of the Pope, the bishop of Rome who after leaving the Church, established himself as the Supreme Pope or bishop of a new church.

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Yes the Bishops and Priests have authority to forgive sins and perform the sacrifice.

John 20 shows where Jesus gave them the gift to forgive sins.

Quote:
20. And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Also scripture shows how others saw Peter as the leader as in Acts 1 when Peter says it is time to replace Judas and they drew lots because they had chosen two. None of the Apostles contested Peter.

Jesus remains the High Priest forever but he left Peter in plenary control of his Kingdom here on Earth and left the Church a Counselor which is the Spirit of Truth to protect and guide it. I think Peter has passed the gift of the Keys to the next Bishop to succeed him and it has been this way for 264 Popes and counting.

Rightglory said:

The Church, which is Christ as Head and the Body, which is made up of all members.

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You are correct. Jesus is the head and all the members of his church are the body.

And the Church (House of God) is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth. In scripture it speaks of the physical sense and not spiritual as the word 'house' signifies.

1 Timothy 3:15

Quote:
3:15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Si autem tardavero ut scias quomodo oporteat te in domo Dei conversari quae est ecclesia Dei vivi columna et firmamentum veritatis



God Bless and Peace be with you brother,

Jack