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No "lies" to it. Most of what you quoted was material where Coil was asserting "religion," not the specific definition entailed by "a religion" as defined by Mackey. The rest of it was Coil shading the differences for whatever reason. With one really totally off-the-wall assertion of the very thing he was refuting from Mackey. If you wish to respond to my posts, please feel free to do so; but if you can't, spare us the cheap dismissal attemtps.Wayne:
Note sure why you wasted so much time noting your disputes with a dead man, but the issue was far more simple: you were wrong about Coil's conclusions. You still have trouble admitting error.
Coil knew far more about the craft than you ever will, and what he saw and thought about we can read for ourselves. Like it or not, you're call; however, let's not lie about what he said in the future. Ok? Cordially, Skip.
Pike argued that one could not hold two religions at the same time and, hence, a Christian, a Jew, or a Moslem could not also accept Freemasonry as his religion. The logic of Pike's statement is not convincing, for, while one might not hold two inconsistent religions at the same time any more than he could be a monarchist and a republican at the same time, there is nothing to prevent one holding two or three religions, philosophies, or political theories which are not inconsistent. (Pgs. 511 - 512)
Some attempt to avoid the issue by saying that Freemasonry is not a religion but is religious, seeming to believe that the substitution of an adjective for a noun makes a fundamental difference.
W: Mackey's thoroughness illustrates Coil's failure to comprehend the difference.
His second definition is, that religion, as distinct from theology, is godliness or real piety in practise, consisting in the performance of all known duties to God and our fellow-men, in obedience to divine command, or from love to food and His law.
It would be as sensible to say that man had no intellect but was intellectual or that he had no honor but was honorable.
W: His objection, when applied to what he is protesting, amounts to, "if a man is religious, he is a religion."
Lastly, he defines religion to be any system of faith or worship and in this sense, he says, religion comprehends the belief and worship of Pagans and Mohammedans as well as of Christians—any religion consisting in the belief of a superior power, or powers, governing the world, and in the worship of such power or powers. It is in this sense that we speak of the Turkish religion, or the Jewish religion, as well as of the Christian.
If Freemasonry is not religion, how could it presume to aid religion?
W: Just one more example of the unfortunate tirade that occurred because Coil refuses to consider the difference between "religion" and "a religion" to be valid.
In so far, therefore, it cannot become a substitute for Christianity, but its tendency is thitherward; and, as the handmaid of religion, it may, and often does, act as the porch that introduces its votaries into the temple of divine truth.
In short, there can be much religion which is neither a religion nor one of the religions.
(c) Belief; Creed; Tenet; Dogma. Does Freemasonry have a creed (I believe) or tenet (he holds) or dogma (I think) to which all members must adhere? Does Freemasonry continually teach and insist upon a creed, tenet, and dogma? Does it have meetings characterized by the practice of rites and ceremonies in and by which its creed, tenet, and dogma are illustrated by myths, symbols, and allegories? If Freemasonry were not religion, what would have to be done to make it such? Nothing would be necessary or at least nothing but to add more of the same. That brings us to the real crux of the matter; the difference between a lodge and a church is one of degree and not of kind. Some think that, because it is not a strong or highly formalized or highly dogmatized religion such as the Roman Catholic Church where it is difficult to tell whether the congregation is worshiping God, Christ, or the Virgin Mary, it can be no religion at all. But a church of Friends (Quakers) exhibits even less formality and ritual than does a Masonic lodge. The fact that Freemasonry is a mild religion does not mean that it is no religion.
Definition of Freemasonry in its broadest sense: Freemasonry, in its broadest and most comprehensive sense, is a system of morality and social ethics,a primitive religion, and a philosophy of life, all of simple and fundamental character, incorporating a broad humanitarianism and, though treating life as a practical experience, subordinates the material to the spiritual; it is a religion without a creed, being of no sect but finding truth in all; it is moral but not pharisaic; it demands sanity rather than sanctity; it is tolerant but not supine; it seeks truth but does not define truth; it urges its votaries to think but does not tell them what to think; it despises ignorance but does not proscribe the ignorant; it fosters education but proposes no curriculum; it espouses political liberty and the dignity of man but has no platform or propaganda; it believes in the nobility and usefulness of life; it is modest and not militant; it is moderate, universal, and so liberal as to permit each individual to form and express his own opinion, even as to what Freemasonry is or ought to be, and invites him to improve it if he can. (Pg. 159)
Did you note the contradiction in your statements? Cordially, Skip.
Perhaps if the members of the freemasons were entirely open and transparency with everything that they do, there would be no cause for their opponents to come up with the "antimason propoganda machine"
with that being the case, whe can we realisticly expect total openness and transparency with the freemasons?
so there is no "anti masonic propaganda machine"? thee are loads of websites that indicate that there is such a thing
I think it better stated that there are many websites whose purpose is to warn men of the dangers of Freemasonry.
It's not a matter of propaganda, but of stating the factual concerns and letting men make their own choices.
Masons can't see that.
Their view is almost always the simplistic one: they are only in it for the $$.
No real consideration of the facts expressed, just knee-jerk, negative responses.
You've misread my post. It is an article of faith with Masons that their critics are ignorant and only in it for the money. We see that charge quite often, without a shred of evidence to back it up. It's almost as though they do not dare admit that perhaps, just perhaps, we have a point now and then.I don't know what kind of Freemasonry you have any exposure to, but can you please elaborate on what money you are referring to?
I rather doubt that. Much of what passes for Masonic charity is actually assistance and support to other Masons and their families. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But spare me the PR about how much Masonic charity helps the population at large.In fact, the majority of the money that goes to the fraternity is paid back out to charitable medical care and medical research organizations.
One Mason's take on the discussions. Under what name did you post over there? I'd like to see what the responses were to you. Cordially, Skip.Take a walk over to the ephesians5-11 site, state you are a Freemason, and say anything positive about Freemasonry. You'll get your face ripped off quicker than you can blink. They're brutal, condescending, and cruel to both Christian and non-Christian Freemasons--all in the name of Christ.
More of your usual, Skip? Okay, we'll spare you the "PR," and stick with the facts, which, unfortunately, you do not:I rather doubt that. Much of what passes for Masonic charity is actually assistance and support to other Masons and their families. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But spare me the PR about how much Masonic charity helps the population at large.
"That Others May See"
Mission Statement of the Knights Templar Eye Foundation, Inc.
To provide assistance to those who face loss of sight due to the need for surgical treatment without regard to race, color, creed, age, sex, or national origin provided that they are unable to pay or receive adequate assistance from current government agencies or similar sources and to provide funds for research in curing diseases of the eye.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Marvin L. Selock KNIGHTS TEMPLAR EYE FOUNDATION
Phone: (847) 490-3838
Knights Templar Eye Foundation Announces $40,000 Pediatric Ophthalmology Research Grant Award
Schaumburg, IL - November 2, 2009
The Knights Templar Eye Foundation has announced this year's Pediatric Ophthalmology Research Grant Award of $40,000. The Knights Templar Eye Foundation (KTEF) invites eligible investigators to submit applications for Pediatric Ophthalmology Research Grants for the next award period of July 1, 2010 to June 30, 2011. They estimate approximately 20 grants of $40,000 each will be awarded. Deadline for the receipt of the submission is Monday, February 16, 2010.
Grants supported by the Knights Templar Eye Foundation are awarded to impact the care of infants and children. Clinical or basic research on conditions that are potentially preventable or correctable such as amblyopia, cataract, glaucoma, optic nerve hypoplasia, nystagmus, retinopathy of prematurity, and hereditary diseases that occur at birth or within early childhood, such as retinoblastoma, are encouraged. Proposals for support of basis research on eye and visual system development also are welcome.
The Knights Templar Eye Foundation is a 501 ( c ) 3 charity sponsored by and is the principal charity of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States of America. Its mission is to provide assistance to those who face loss of sight due to the need for surgical treatment without regard to race, color, creed, age, sex, or national origin provided they are unable to pay or receive adequate assistance from current government agencies or similar sources, and to provide funds for research in curing diseases of the eye. To date, the KTEF has provided in excess of $100 million of assistance in surgeries and in excess of $10 million in pediatric research grant awards.
You've misread my post. It is an article of faith with Masons that their critics are ignorant and only in it for the money. We see that charge quite often, without a shred of evidence to back it up. It's almost as though they do not dare admit that perhaps, just perhaps, we have a point now and then.
I rather doubt that. Much of what passes for Masonic charity is actually assistance and support to other Masons and their families. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But spare me the PR about how much Masonic charity helps the population at large.
One Mason's take on the discussions. Under what name did you post over there? I'd like to see what the responses were to you.
You've misread my post. It is an article of faith with Masons that their critics are ignorant and only in it for the money. We see that charge quite often, without a shred of evidence to back it up. It's almost as though they do not dare admit that perhaps, just perhaps, we have a point now and then.
My apologies. I did misread that part of the post, and though I disagree with the generalization, I do stand corrected.
And where do these charities get their funding from?Skip, you are either ignorant to the facts or you blatantly disregard the real, public-facing Masonic charities that provide hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, assistance, research, and care every year to children and adults. And there is no requirement for the recipients to have any affiliation with Freemasonry.
Sure. Cordially, Skip.I prefer to maintain anonymity on that forum, so I will not.
And where do these charities get their funding from?
Exactly. Much of the 'income' reported is also from investments. They generally have large investment portfolios which generate much of the income. The KTEF, for example, has $73M in investments on hand in 09, which is down from $80M in 08 (economy hits all investors).From sources similar to the way other charities get their funding:
In my experience, Masons do much more behind the scenes than in the public eye, partly because they prefer it that way, but mainly because it is the way of the Master, who said do your alms-giving in private. I daresay that if they were not required to do so, they would not even be so forthcoming as to make public what they do give. I find "PR" therefore to be the product of a critical broad brush.A common PR move is for Masons to claim charitable giving of $2M per day, which is really not correct. Their charities may generate that, but little of it comes from Masons themselves.
Not so. Money invested from all sources, both Masonic and non-Masonic, gains interest, and that interest is usually reinvested, which gains more interest and so on.Since the investment money generated, is generated by Masonic investments, it is required to be reported as Masonic giving. The whole accusation is circular.
Okay, then, if it didn't come from Masons, then who was it? My observation has been, that often organizations start well and run well for a time, then have a tendency to taper off or begin to channel funds into other purposes or to fund an ever-increasing administrative base. Isn't the decision not to follow that pattern a commendable choice?Not so. Money invested from all sources, both Masonic and non-Masonic, gains interest, and that interest is usually reinvested, which gains more interest and so on.
My point is this: Masonic charitable organizations, to varying degrees, receive funds from non-Masons as well as Masons. This is particularly true in the case of the Shrine hospitals, which forms a major element of what is called "Masonic giving." In these funds, the amount of money called 'giving' is actually composed of contributions from both camps plus investment income. Over time, the investment income from a well managed fund becomes a larger part of the income. Thus, the 'income' noted in these funds does not translate directly to Masons contributing to that fund. Cordially, Skip.
I think it's the same linear thinking that typifies most antimasonic criticism, which is behind this current exchange. I mean, I understand where it comes from to see "Masons give. . ." and take it only in its strictest sense as Skip does--but that doesn't mean I have to address the matter on his terms. I take the same statement in its broader sense (and the sense which, imo, is intended) to mean, "Freemasonry gives. . ." or even "Masonic organizations give. . ."Wayne, Skip is just splitting hairs again. He reads the statement, "Masons give $2M a day to charities" and then challenges it because some of the money comes from investment returns and from people outside of Freemasonry. Personally, I don't know if the stated $2M represents just the portion that Freemasons actually give, or if that is what charities receive from all Masonic or Masonic-initiated sources, be it investment returns, gifts, etc. The fact remains that Freemasonry is responsible, either directly or indirectly, for a huge amount of money freely given in the name of charity. And Masonic charities contribute significant aid, research, and assistance to children and adults, regardless of their Masonic affiliation.
I think it's the same linear thinking that typifies most antimasonic criticism, which is behind this current exchange. I mean, I understand where it comes from to see "Masons give. . ." and take it only in its strictest sense as Skip does--but that doesn't mean I have to address the matter on his terms. I take the same statement in its broader sense (and the sense which, imo, is intended) to mean, "Freemasonry gives. . ." or even "Masonic organizations give. . ."
It's the same with the church. I see a statement about "Christians give" in regard to charities supported by the church, and I take it not only as an inclusion of many individuals, but of many denominations, many individuals who are not even Christians, and many non-Christian organizations which yet choose to do their giving through the church. And it all comes under the umbrella of "Christian giving," without any real question about it.
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