The Antimasonic Propaganda Machine

O.F.F. · Sep 29, 2010

Deleted by author.

O.F.F. · Sep 29, 2010

Welcome to the board ALX25!

ALX25 · Sep 29, 2010

Ill check in here and there, wheres Glock aka praisehymm aka Rev Wayne,, ?? LOL...

ChristianMasonJim · Sep 29, 2010

So will this be getting back on topic any time soon? Or is this going to continue to be nothing more than a he-said, he-said discussion?

Frankly, it has degenerated to the point where no coherent discussion is taking place, and it saddens me that when legitimate points are brought up, they are regularly pushed aside in favor of bickering. I guess it's just a sign that solid debate is impossible on these kinds of forums.

Sigh.

Rev Wayne · Sep 29, 2010

Skip Sampson said:
Point is that you made an accusation that you couldn't back up. Cordially, Skip.

What on earth are you talking about? So far, your conversation the last couple of posts has been:

When and where on this forum have I every[sic] made such statements?

Point is that you made an accusation that you couldn't back up.

So in other words, you've asked one question and made one conclusion; and by your current response, have made a tacit refusal to flesh any of it out with any substance at all.

But to show the readers the falsehoods being propagated by the accusers of Masonry here, I suppose at least a response is due to them:

FIRST, I stated:

So, you're saying then, that when these two come here and tell us that God is against Freemasonry, and that as a result, Masons' aprons will "fall off or burn off," that they are "100% correct?"

SECOND, Skip replied with the question:

When and where on this forum have I every[sic] made such statements?

By that response, it's pretty clear Skip was taking my question as though it applied only to him. Why? Because in my comment, I clearly stated "when these two come here and tell us," etc.

THIRD, it is freely acknowledged, that Skip did not, in so many words, make the specific statement that "Masons' aprons will either fall off or burn off." But the statement "when these two come here and tell us that God is against Freemasonry, and that as a result, Masons' aprons will 'fall off or burn off'" was not intended, and need not automatically imply that both the accusers referred to had made both statements.

FOURTH, not that point the THIRD makes any difference, when you consider that Skip clearly implies BOTH the points I made, with this comment made by him earlier this year:

I do not believe there are any Masons 'who are saved by the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ' because such men never go back after the EA degree. Those who continue simply do not know the gospel or don't care, and in either way, are not Christians.
(April 18, 2010)

FIFTH, therefore, since he clearly states his belief that Masons (or those past the EA degree, at least) are not Christians, then he shows that he is in general agreement with both points as stated: that God is against Freemasonry; and the affirmation of "aprons burning off," which really is simply saying "Masons will go to hell." Since Skip clearly is not in disagreement with either point, he is being disingenuous about the whole bit anyway.

SIXTH, the above statement made by Skip earlier this year, is the surest explanation why Skip would not, when invited, make a statement to the contrary: because he himself already knew the position he had taken, and knew that what I stated was so, and could not risk making the contrary statement and the ensuing embarrassment if called out on it.

Rev Wayne · Sep 29, 2010

O.F.F. said:
He can't prove that I have ever said it either. The comment came from Larry Kunk and Duane Washum, so I suspect Wayne is just trying to make us guilty by association. That would be like us claiming that he is then guilty of saying everything that has ever been spoken or written by any Mason.

Gee, you wanna go there again??? How many more lying denials will you make??? I mean last time, it was your "army of one," and you claimed never to have said it, and were shown to be less than truthful about it. Before that it was claiming you never said Masonry was Satanic, before that it was claiming you did not plagiarize a post even after the site from which you lifted it was cited and shown to be word-for-word the same, and in that same situation it was going back and editing the post after the fact to insert the attribution, and then trying to claim it had been there all along--despite my having copies of both the "before" and the "after," etc. etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

To be concise: save it, you lost all your credibility long ago (assuming you ever had any to begin with).

Thank you for the comic interlude, though. I have to admit, it IS pretty funny watching you trying to distance yourself from EMFJ in this instance, after going out of your way to try to claim they were all members of your own organization, by some kind of magical osmosis. I bet even Duane got a belly laugh out of that one.

O.F.F. · Sep 29, 2010

Rev Wayne said:
Gee, you wanna go there again??? and you claimed never to have said it, . . .

Yup, let's go there...

O.F.F. said:
What will you do on that great day when you, a supposed Christian pastor, stand before God in your Masonic apron and regalia that they'll probably bury you in and find out that your entire involvement in Freemasonry burns in fire along with your apron like wood, hay or straw, because the foundation of Freemasonry is not Jesus Christ but some man-made, discriminatory, self-glorifying, works-based religious fraternity (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)?

Yes, on that great day your Masonic Apron will either fall off or burn off. Either way it will be O.F.F. not from! (emphasis added)

Yeah I said it, but not in the same context that you're trying to spin. As stated, my claim is strictly in the context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Whether you end up in Hell or not is strictly up to God.

Rev Wayne · Sep 29, 2010

O.F.F. said:
Yup, let's go there...

Yeah I said it, but not in the same context that you're trying to spin. As stated, my claim is strictly in the context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

Whether you end up in Hell or not is strictly up to God.

There goes your selective memory at work again. Seems like you've always been more fond of making accusations like THIS one about the burning apron:

See pastor JP, now you are starting to realize just how these resident Masonic antichrists operate. But what they fail to realize is that their Masonic involvement will have no eternal value whatsoever. What's worse, is they don't realize that one day, their Masonic aprons will either fall O.F.F. or unfortunately, burn off. (CARM forums, "Doesn't FM Teach Salvation for All FMs?" p. 7, post #129)

Now, I think it would be safe to assume that when you spoke of "resident Masonic antichrists," you were (1) speaking of me for one, since the post was in reference to me, and you were (2) most definitely NOT intending by "antichrists," that you were speaking of fellow Christian laborers who would have their work burned up, but they themselves be saved. I mean, I've seen you deconstruct the meaning of quite a few things, but I'd find it pretty much impossible for you to spin "antichrist" to make it a positive affirmation.

So no, I don't buy your current spin, for the simple reason, I know better, and have watched you engage in this deceitful sophistry for some time now. Besides, in your current diatribe, you kinda lost it anyway, since no one was saying what you claimed in the first place:

Yeah I said it, but not in the same context that you're trying to spin. As stated, my claim is strictly in the context of 1 Corinthians
3:10-15.

So you "stated." And my comment was stated in the context of.....come to think of it, what WAS that context? Let's revisit the original:

So, you're saying then, that when these two come here and tell us that God is against Freemasonry, and that as a result, Masons' aprons will "fall off or burn off," that they are "100% correct?"

Okay, so maybe you can explain for us how this equates to a "context I'm trying to spin?"

What I stated has nothing to do at all with what you are now quibbling about. Fact is, what I stated there cannot be automatically consigned to whatever it is you are trying to escape from, nor to the text you cited from 1 Corinthians. After all, I didn't say in that statement that you guys said God was "against Freemasons"; all I said was that y'all claimed He was against Freemasonry. There is absolutely nothing anywhere in anything I said which had anything at all to do one way or the other with one's eternal destiny.

Why do you go to such length defending against something no one was saying in the first place? Seems to me with your comment about "hell," YOU were the one who introduced this "context" into the remarks. My only point in the matter was not one that was made to either one of you, but rather to Jim, taking him to task for making any suggestion that you could be "100% correct" in your opinions. That addresses only the notion of whether you were correct in saying it, not what you intended by it.

And I must admit, I was puzzled at first by why you would have deleted that post when you posted this latest one. But then I realized, you're shifting things again, so that instead of making the original challenge of "I never said that," you can change it to "I said that, but not the way you claimed I said it."

I think a much more likely scenario is, you came here with your usual blustery denial of "I never said that"; but after my reply, suddenly you were reminded of the previous fisacoes, did a quick check and found out you had indeed made the same blunder once more; and to try to minimize the damage, you erased the claim you didn't say it, to replace it with a quick admission, complete wih spin job. Only the spin job failed when I went back to the statement as I originally made it, and realized your claim of "context" was bogus.

But thanks for playing, and providing more grist for the mill where antimasonic tactics are concerned.

O.F.F. · Sep 29, 2010

Wayne said:
Now, I think it would be safe to assume that when you spoke of "resident Masonic antichrists," you were (1) speaking of me for one, since the post was in reference to me, and you were (2) most definitely NOT intending by "antichrists," that you were speaking of fellow Christian laborers who would have their work burned up, but they themselves be saved. I mean, I've seen you deconstruct the meaning of quite a few things, but I'd find it pretty much impossible for you to spin "antichrist" to make it a positive affirmation.

No, as shown in this thread, usually my use of "antichrist" is in response to your use of "anti-mason," which I'm sure your intention is not to speak of fellow Christian laborers or to make a positive affirmation either.

Wayne said:
Okay, so maybe you can explain for us how this equates to a "context I'm trying to spin?"

The "spin" I was referring to was the one you tried to lay on Skip, that "all Masons will burn in Hell," while attributing that belief to me at the same time; when in your initial comment you distinctly said, "when these two come here and tell us," etc. Obviously you meant ME as the second one who comes here. But now that ALX25 has arrived, I guess you'll manage to refer to "these three" at some point; when you try to spin that we all categorically share the same opinions about Masons and Freemasonry.

Wayne said:
And I must admit, I was puzzled at first by why you would have deleted that post when you posted this latest one. But then I realized, you're shifting things again, so that instead of making the original challenge of "I never said that," you can change it to "I said that, but not the way you claimed I said it." ... Only the spin job failed when I went back to the statement as I originally made it, and realized your claim of "context" was bogus.

Don't be puzzled, either way I stand on my position, which is, I don't know if Masons who claim to be Christians will burn in hell. What I do know is they will have a lot to answer to for their persistence in Freemasonry, which includes, but is not necessarily limited to:

Pride resulting from earning fancier aprons and other regalia, from obtaining higher degrees, and as they sit in more prominent places of honor in the Lodge (or body) as they seek to become officers and leaders within the various levels of the Masonic Order (Proverbs 11:2, 16:18, James 4:6 and Philippians 2:3).
Stubbornness in refusing to accept biblical counsel of how the teachings of Freemasonry undermine Scripture (Jeremiah 7:24, Jeremiah 17:9, and Psalm 81:11a -12).
Violating the First Commandment by acknowledging one God (GAOTU) with fellow Masonic brothers during ritual who worship false gods (Exodus 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7).
Boasting and bragging about their philanthropy with the inflated exaggeration of "we give a million dollars a day to charity" (Matthew 6:1-34).

And yes I do believe, as I stated 5 years ago, that their aprons will indeed burn O.F.F. in the context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. But again, as for being saved, I'll leave the eternal destiny of their souls in God's hands. Given what I just listed, who would ever want to stand before Him in a Masonic Apron they were buried in? I think it would be best to stand before Him covered by the blood of "The Lamb" rather than the skin of a lamb.

Rev Wayne · Sep 30, 2010

No, as shown in this thread, usually my use of "antichrist" is in response to your use of "anti-mason," which I'm sure your intention is not to speak of fellow Christian laborers or to make a positive affirmation either.

"This thread?" What does that have to do with the statement I provided from last year, in a conversation you made AT CARM FORUMS? I thought you were hollering about "context?" Did you totally MISS IT that this particular citation I mentioned, was from CARM FORUMS and NOT HERE??? How on earth do you propose to substitute what you may or may not have intended HERE, for what you meant THERE?? And exactly how does an occasional reference to "antimason" equate to "not speaking of fellow Christian laborers?" Are you trying to suggest that I have implied that speaking against Masonry makes a person un-Christian?

Well, it's not too surprising that you would tell another untruth to cover up the first one.

And your meaning was imminently clear, too, because you included in that same post:

Warning Against Antichrists

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (emphasis added)

1 John 2:18-19

Notice, readers, Mike's characteristic highlighting and notation of "emphasis added." By those self-proclaimed points of emphasis, he himself has provided the evidence for everyone to see, that he clearly did NOT mean this "in the context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15." He stated, and then added EMPHASIS, to the context he was asserting there, that "NONE OF THEM BELONGED TO US," in a move that was clearly stating to those Masons present and posting on that forum, "you are not Christian, you are antichrists."

you tried to lay on Skip, that "all Masons will burn in Hell,"

I did no such thing. I already explained once why that is not true:

THIRD, it is freely acknowledged, that Skip did not, in so many words, make the specific statement that "Masons' aprons will either fall off or burn off." But the statement "when these two come here and tell us that God is against Freemasonry, and that as a result, Masons' aprons will 'fall off or burn off'" was not intended, and need not automatically imply that both the accusers referred to had made both statements.

In other words--since you seem to have skipped Basic Comprehension 101--my saying that "these two come here and tell us that God is against Freemasonry, and that as a result, Masons' aprons will 'fall off or burn off'" was NOT a claim that BOTH of you said BOTH statements. And since the statement that Skip made, that Masons are not Christians if they go beyond the EA degree, clearly implies that as non-Christians they would end up somewhere other than heaven, I'm afraid his options for where that would leave him declaring that they WOULD go, are extremely limited. No, actually, it's obvious. So despite your attempts to take on a defense of him as well as you, I'm afraid you can't escape your own words at CARM last year, and he can't escape the implications of his own comments HERE. Because regardless of whether he actually made the direct statement, the statement I cited shows that the implications are exactly the same.
I gave him opportunity to respond, so since it's pretty obvious you are not Skip, so why not let him offer his own defense?

The "spin" I was referring to was the one you tried to lay on Skip, that "all Masons will burn in Hell," while attributing that belief to me at the same time; when in your initial comment you distinctly said, "when these two come here and tell us," etc.

Well, as just shown from the CARM thread where you ACTUALLY made the statement, from March of last year, the time when you ACTUALLY made the statement, the statement was no spin. But as I already said, the statement in the context in which I first made it here, had nothing to do with Masons' destiny at all, I was merely pointing out that Jim's statement about your opinions being "100% correct," cannot be sustained, because he certainly would not agree with some of the opinions you have been known to offer here.

Besides, why go to such great lengths to defend against ONE opinion in which you were shown to be wrong, when there have been so MANY times recently that you have been caught, not just making erroneous statements, but engaging in deliberately false statements.

But now that ALX25 has arrived, I guess you'll manage to refer to "these three" at some point; when you try to spin that we all categorically share the same opinions about Masons and Freemasonry

.

No need to. The last time I saw him, he wasn't saying anything at all, because I had him on ignore. The minute I saw him here, I remembered that, and figured there were very good reasons for it, so I followed suit here.

And yes I do believe, as I stated 5 years ago, that their aprons will indeed burn O.F.F. in the context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. But again, as for being saved, I'll leave the eternal destiny of their souls in God's hands.

Well, maybe you said that five years ago. But too bad it didn't last, because as anyone can see from your statement at CARM LAST YEAR, ON MARCH 14, which I cited in my previous post, somewhere during that five years, you did an about face. You can pretend all you wish, that you have believed otherwise, or have simply left judgment up to God, and have never meant it any differently for the past five years, but once again, as with so many other claims from you lately, as anyone can see, YOU ARE GUILTY OF VIOLATING THE NINTH COMMANDMENT ONE MORE TIME.

Given what I just listed, who would ever want to stand before Him in a Masonic Apron they were buried in?

Given what we as Christians know and affirm about the nature of death and resurrection, who on earth would make the preposterous suggestion that we will be wearing aprons at that time? that is, other than being clothed in the righteousness of Christ, which the Christian Mason will easily understand to be the symbolism anyway? And where do you see anywhere in Masonry that anyone claims they will be "wearing their apron before Him?" Come to think of it, where do you come off with this false notion that every single Mason will opt for a Masonic funeral in the first place? Is this yet another of your non-factual claims? Boy, here lately they just roll off your tongue like the cheap rhetoric they truly are. In fact, the closest you come to being correct is, that since I will be opting for cremation, it would certainly be true that the apron "would burn off." But since I do not plan to opt for a Masonic funeral, the notion would still be false.

Interesting list you offer, too. Can't help noticing, that the accusers of Masonry are chalking up their own little list:

· Pride in thinking that their literalism is the only way anyone can interpret anything.

· Stubbornness in persisting in raising the same worn-out accusations again and again and again, even after they've been thoroughly refuted ten times over.

· Violating the ninth commandment (no, Skip, the use of the plural "accusers" does not mean I include you in this particular point, nor should it even be necessary to point out the obvious).

· Belittling and badgering their fellow Christians for having the audacity to speak in defense against accusations of evil, by pointing out the good that anyone can easily see has been, and continues to be, accomplished within Masonic charitable giving--especially since, had the accusations not first been raised by Masonry's accusers, no Mason would ever raise such a defense to begin with.

In fact, there is a pretty standard response that is commonly found cited by Grand Lodges on their information pages:

Masons take pride in acknowledging our extensive Masonic charities whether it is the thousands of scholarship and educational programs sponsored by Grand Lodges and local Blue Lodges, or a variety of community support programs.

All members of the Masonic fraternity are just as proud of the of concordant bodies charities like Shrine Children’s Hospitals and Burn Clinics, Royal Arch Heart programs, Scottish Rite Speech and Hearing Clinics. When you add to these, the charities and programs sponsored by Masonic related women’s organizations, it is conservatively estimated that Masonic Charity in the United States is in excess of three million dollars a day.

I don't see why you seem to think this is something to be ashamed about. And anyway, before the current unabated and unfounded spate of accusations and accusers crawling out of the woodwork, you would not have seen this kind of statement being made at all. There has been a tremendous amount of catchup work made necessary by the false accusations of Masonry's detractors.

And my Bible says to " Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." So no, I don't see it as something to hide under a bushel and be ashamed of, as you seem to think.

So, by way of comparison, what kinds of things do YOU brag about? Oh, that's right, we've already seen:

Yeah I said it, but not in the same context that you're trying to spin.

Boasting about saying something that you had just claimed in the post just prior to that one, that you had not said at all! Nope, I think if given the choice, I'd much prefer to take pride in the charitable giving of Masonry, than to brag about antimasonic deviations from the truth.

And if you persist in it, well, it looks like that fancy Masonic logo you adapted for your organization just may go up in smoke as well. Whether you will join it, of course, is up to God.

ALX25 · Sep 30, 2010

ChristianMasonJim said:
So will this be getting back on topic any time soon? Or is this going to continue to be nothing more than a he-said, he-said discussion?

Frankly, it has degenerated to the point where no coherent discussion is taking place, and it saddens me that when legitimate points are brought up, they are regularly pushed aside in favor of bickering. I guess it's just a sign that solid debate is impossible on these kinds of forums.

Sigh.

Your masonic organization allows every and any religion under the the umbrella of GAOTU to be respected and recognized as a faith in "a god", however the proclaimed christian-mason conforms to the unification and one accord brother-hood of the masoinc order and that practice and acceptance go's directly against the teaching of JESUS Christ, so the question Jim is that Christ-like?? No its not, provide scripture where JESUS taught his disciples:

secret hand shakes;

secret pass words:

encrypted study material:

the belief of calling a human being of flesh and blood and a sinful nature a " worshipfull Master "

the term christian-mason is a oxymoron

ChristianMasonJim · Sep 30, 2010

ALX25 said:
Your masonic organization allows every and any religion under the the umbrella of GAOTU to be respected and recognized as a faith in "a god", however the proclaimed christian-mason conforms to the unification and one accord brother-hood of the masoinc order and that practice and acceptance go's directly against the teaching of JESUS Christ, so the question Jim is that Christ-like?? No its not,

I explained my take above. If you do not accept, agree with, or understand my explanation, then so be it.

ALX25 said:
provide scripture where JESUS taught his disciples...

secret hand shakes;

secret pass words:

Obviously, I cannot. But while we are on the topic, please provide scripture where Jesus taught His disciples to draw a symbol of the fish in the sand as a mode of recognition to other Christians.

ALX25 said:
encrypted study material:

Obviously, I cannot. But while we are on the topic, please provide scripture where Jesus taught His disciples that once scriptures were codified and written down, that the Church leaders were to restrict their reading exclusively to its clergy, preventing Christians at-large from reading His Word.

ALX25 said:
the belief of calling a human being of flesh and blood and a sinful nature a " worshipfull Master "

It is nothing more than a title of respect and position, rooted in older language similar in usage to "Your Honor", and it is still used today particularly in the UK.

O.F.F. · Sep 30, 2010

Wayne said:
Masons take pride in acknowledging our extensive Masonic charities whether it is the thousands of scholarship and educational programs sponsored by Grand Lodges and local Blue Lodges, or a variety of community support programs.

All members of the Masonic fraternity are just as proud of the of concordant bodies charities like Shrine Children’s Hospitals and Burn Clinics, Royal Arch Heart programs, Scottish Rite Speech and Hearing Clinics. When you add to these, the charities and programs sponsored by Masonic related women’s organizations, it is conservatively estimated that Masonic Charity in the United States is in excess of three million dollars a day. (emphasis added)

Oh so now it's gone up to $3M/day (365 days a year) not $1 million. Talk about violating the 9th Commandment, do you really think people are to believe that Freemasonry gives in excess of $1 billion (with a "B") dollars every year? Get the heck out of here!

According to the Masonic Service Association membership statistics, with the exception of Rhode Island and New Mexico, every single Grand Lodge in America has dwindling membership. If Masonic membership is declining, how can its charitable giving be increasing? Until you can provide solid proof (real verifiable data) this HIGHFALUTIN, OVER INFLATED EXAGGERATION is just that, a VIOLATION OF THE NINTH COMMANDMENT!

It's also a violation of your very own words. On the one hand, you often stress that South Carolina is very different from any other Masonic jurisdiction in the U.S. As a result you insist that generalizations about Freemasonry as a whole, cannot and should not be applied to individual jurisdictions, due to each having their own constitution, by-laws, etc. Yet you are quick to apply the blanket statement that Freemasonry as a whole gives $3M/day to charity. Make up your mind pastor, you can't have it both ways! Perhaps you should just stick to whatever the Grand Lodge of South Carolina gives per day or per year. Since you are bragging about the whole, what percent of that figure comes from your Grand Lodge alone? And, just as it applies to the whole, do you have the data to prove it?

What has already been proven is the fact that Blue Lodge Masonry attempts to make this outlandish claim by leveraging the investments made by Shriners from their hospitals. Besides, with the recent closing of several Shriner hospitals across the country, I can't see how Masonry can make or sustain such a claim.

Skip is most qualified to weigh-in on this, because it was his study entitled, "Masonry by the Numbers" that proved it. I'll let him share some of the details, if he'd like, but suffice to say that given the public record, without adding their investments to the equation there is no way Masonry can make this claim. But even though they do, with their hospitals closing and Masonic membership declining, I find it hard to believe the claim to be true. Not to mention the fact that this further contradicts your own words. Whenever we mention the infamous quotes from Morals & Dogma or the fact that Shriners refer to GAOTU as Allah, you insist that Shriners are not really part of Masonry any more than Albert Pike's Scottish Rite. If that's the case, then Grand Lodges shouldn't be using their investments and calling it Masonic charity.

And anyway, before the current unabated and unfounded spate of accusations and accusers crawling out of the woodwork, you would not have seen this kind of statement being made at all.

So if I understand you correctly, because Freemasonry has been accused of so much 'wrong' doing, you are justifying the violation of Jesus' own words found in Matthew 6, of not bragging about your 'right' doing. This comes as no surprise, since you've been shown to indiscriminately violate other parts of God's Word.

Wayne said:
I don't see why you seem to think this is something to be ashamed about.

What's shameful is for a supposedly seminary-trained "Christian" pastor to make such a boast when he should know better. This assumes, of course, he knows the importance of Christ's own words found in Matthew 6; which YOU obviously either don't know or don't care to follow. Yeah pastor, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 6:1-4

ALX25 · Sep 30, 2010

ChristianMasonJim said:
I explained my take above. If you do not accept, agree with, or understand my explanation, then so be it.

Obviously, I cannot. But while we are on the topic, please provide scripture where Jesus taught His disciples to draw a symbol of the fish in the sand as a mode of recognition to other Christians.

Obviously, I cannot. But while we are on the topic, please provide scripture where Jesus taught His disciples that once scriptures were codified and written down, that the Church leaders were to restrict their reading exclusively to its clergy, preventing Christians at-large from reading His Word.

It is nothing more than a title of respect and position, rooted in older language similar in usage to "Your Honor", and it is still used today particularly in the UK.

One - Your masonic beliefs and membership to a masonic lodge is the reason why we are posting in a sub-forum deemed UNORTHODOX THEOLOGY.

Two- The christian drawing the symbol of the fish in the sand was in no way shape or form trying to instruct man with a new form of moral instructions and beliefs borowed from a multi-faith craft as masonry does.

Three- The issue is masonry and its non-christian beliefs, and by the way does'nt masonry restict its teaching to select individuals, your contradiction grows, if JESUS provided 100% truth what possible reason would the masonic lodge have to instruct men in morals that God himself did not teach, your argument is at best practice for me.. I have two words for you Jim " unorthodox - mason "

Love the man hate the sin..

Rev Wayne · Sep 30, 2010

Oh so now it's gone up to $3M/day (365 days a year) not $1 million.

Oh no, it hasn't "gone up," you just have a faulty recollection of the figures. The figure I always fielded from you guys more than any other, was two million dollars a day. That being the case, I posted the statement listing it as $3 million, as a counter to your claim of only $1 million, so that we could hopefully split the difference and get back on track with the traditional figure you guys throw at us.

But since you obviously don't remember that, I'd be happy to look up those instances to show that you previously endorsed this as $2 million dollars, but with one proviso: that you first offer us another vehement denial that you "EVER said such a thing," so we can maximize the effect and add another violation of commandment nine to your growing list.

Who cares if it's "only" hundreds of millions as opposed to "billions," Masons don't really try to hammer all that out and parade it around anyway. In fact, Masonry probably is more behind-the-scenes than any other organization you could name, in low-keying issues of charitable involvement. In fact, that's one of the reasons it's so difficult to get a handle on total Masonic giving in the first place.

Besides, the more information that I would find it possible to trot out here for you, the more you would just point an accusing finger going "Aha!" and claiming that it only proved your point about "bragging."

Talk about violating the 9th Commandment, do you really think people are to believe that Freemasonry gives in excess of $1 billion (with a "B") dollars every year? Get the heck out of here!

I don't really care one way or the other what the figure is, I just know it's large, and besides, YOU were the one who introduced the subject in the first place, I'll just let you worry about it. Why not check whatever records you can find on the matter? Not that you'll have much luck trying to compile a thorough-going, one-location rendering of it. Heck, even bessel.org and masonicinfo.com put together--two of the most ready sources of Masonic information--do not have a detailed analysis of it. But I tend to think that is more a result of (1) it being low-keyed to begin with, and (2) it being such a natural outflow of the many exhortations to charity that are found in Masonry--neither of which lends itself to the desires of those who wish to be bean-counters.

Besides, there is a lot of it which simply does not lend itself to any attempt to place monetary values upon it. For instance, on the masonicinfo page addressing the accusations concerning charities:

The Masonic Service Association quietly oversees a Hospital Visitation Program with a goal that every Veteran's Administration Hospital in the United States have a Masonic volunteer working with patients. How can a value be placed on the more than 500,000 hours a year spent on this work? 　It simply can't be done!

I would point out the flip side of that coin as well: the motivational factor that leads Masons to get involved in the first place. Masons are encouraged to be civic-minded, and I must confess, this was one area where I was less than exemplary prior to becoming a Mason. Not that I get involved out of any sense of trying to make up for that. But one of the most fulfilling things I got involved with along that line, was as a member of an advisory council providing oversight and input into allocation of $3 million worth of federal Title I funds in the county's school districts. We met together, we met with principals and teachers, we were hands-on in getting down to the grass-roots level to find out where the needs were. But the part about the whole deal that I still find to be the icing on the cake? That would be the time we spent interacting with kids at the elementary and middle schools where we were on-site to talk with the teachers and administrators--a part of the job which was never "a part of the job" to begin with. It was the only "payment" I received for the tasks we did, and one which, like a Capital One advertisement, was simply "priceless." Which probably explains why I am currently seeking information about how to get hooked up for the same kind of involvement once again. If it's selfish of me to seek such involvement because I enjoy the fringe benefits of it, then so be it! It beats sitting on my duff and throwing rocks back at you.

I can appreciate the fact, though, that you find information on Masonic giving a bit difficult to find. Here's a link to a resource you could purchase if you're really interested in trying to delve this out.

http://www.srmason-sj.org/mp2/index.htm
You can also check these out:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/caring.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/savehist.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/helpinghands.htm

But as I recall, it was YOU who brought it up in the first place, not me, all I can do is respond to the issues you raise, right? You may not have noticed, but as long as no issues are being raised here, I am nowhere around. The stance I have consistently taken for quite some time, is to adopt a defensive posture of speaking mainly when spoken to, with an occasional exception. All you have to do is shut up, and you won't be likely to hear anything from me on ANYTHING.

What's shameful is for a supposedly seminary-trained "Christian" pastor to make such a boast when he should know better. This assumes, of course, he knows the importance of Christ's own words found in Matthew 6; which YOU obviously either don't know or don't care to follow. Yeah pastor, you really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Boast? I cited Matthew 7, that we should let our light shine so that others may "see your good works and glorify God the Father," and you call it a BOAST?????

I don't mind "boasting" in the Lord. In fact, I find it a striking point of information, when you consider that most Masons are also Christians, and that, in my experience, they are invariably among the best givers to the church as well. My mother always used to say, "You can't out-give God." And for those who are "cheerful givers," I find the Lord not only supplies, He blesses in even greater abundance in response.

As for "boasting in the Lord," even Paul indulged himself in it when HE was faced with mindless criticisms. Maybe you should try lining yourself up with the Word as well, rather than trying to slam-dunk everyone else with it, you might find it enlightening for a change.

Like I already stated, YOU brought the subject up, NOT me.
What is really "shameful," is the idea of YOU introducing this subject, and then trying to use it as leverage to accuse ME of "boasting" when I simply responded from a defensive standpoint. If you don't want me to address the issue, or if you don't like my response, then simply zip yer yapper and quit bringing idiotic stuff up, that ought to be pretty simple to understand, but somehow you haven't gotten the message even though I've pointed this out several times, and have repeatedly followed that same simple pattern of discourse.

As for Matthew 6, it would be interesting to sift through my files and see how many times and on how many threads, it has been ME pointing that text out to YOU. As it says on the ad found on the linked page above, which links to the S. Brent Morris book on Masonic charities, "Masons don’t like to brag, but we shouldn’t hide our light under a bushel either!"

And that's true from the Christian perspective, where just about every important doctrine of the faith is held in the tightest tension with another doctrine that seemingly expresses a countering belief. Some of the most notable that theologians have dealt with over the years have been law vs grace, free will vs God's sovereignty, faith vs works, "once saved, always saved" vs the many exhortations indicating a possibility of "falling," just to name a few. So it should be no surprise when we address this issue, to find that we must balance Matthew 6 and the exhortation to "do your alms in private," against Matthew 7 and the exhortation to "let your light shine" so that others may "see your good works and glorify God the Father."

But I must confess, I find it strikingly odd to come across one who professes to be a Christian, yet at the same time, apparently, opposes the idea of charitable giving. Where in Scripture do you find any justification for such a stance, O wise one?

You can rant till you're blue in the face on this one, I will not presume to tell you or anyone else where the fine line is that must be drawn between the two. But for you to pretend that you never saw any of the MULTITUDE of times that I myself have presented YOU with the admonitions of Matthew 6, reeks of dishonesty and deception.

ChristianMasonJim · Sep 30, 2010

ALX25 said:
One - Your masonic beliefs and membership to a masonic lodge is the reason why we are posting in a sub-forum deemed UNORTHODOX THEOLOGY.

How the sub-forum is labeled really doesn't matter. We could be posting in a Corvette forum and it wouldn't matter. The content would still be the same from both sides of the debate.

ALX25 said:
Two- The christian drawing the symbol of the fish in the sand was in no way shape or form trying to instruct man with a new form of moral instructions and beliefs borowed from a multi-faith craft as masonry does.

You are correct. And neither does a "secret handshake" or a "secret password". Of course, this is common knowledge that has been said over and over, yet continues to fall on deaf ears.

ALX25 said:
Three- The issue is masonry and its non-christian beliefs, and by the way does'nt masonry restict its teaching to select individuals, your contradiction grows,...

Freemasonry restricts its teaching only to those who want to learn, and to those who do not want to learn, Freemasonry does not teach to them. Of course, this has been said over and over, yet it continues to fall on deaf ears.

ALX25 said:
...if JESUS provided 100% truth what possible reason would the masonic lodge have to instruct men in morals that God himself did not teach,...

The morals that Masonic degrees in the Blue Lodge teach are rooted directly in Old Testament teaching, stories, allegory and symbolism. By strict definition, said morality comes from God Himself. Of course, this has been said over and over, and it continues to fall on deaf ears.

ALX25 said:
Love the man hate the sin..

Good words of wisdom, but in practice both here and in countless other anti-Masonic discussions, the reality is that it is worded more like, "Love the man, hate the sin, then chastise the man and what he does repeatedly until he either leaves our holier-than-thou fold or agrees with us. Now stop bothering us you heathen." Or something along those lines. You get the idea.

ALX25 · Sep 30, 2010

ChristianMasonJim said:
How the sub-forum is labeled really doesn't matter. We could be posting in a Corvette forum and it wouldn't matter. The content would still be the same from both sides of the debate.

You are correct. And neither does a "secret handshake" or a "secret password". Of course, this is common knowledge that has been said over and over, yet continues to fall on deaf ears.

Freemasonry restricts its teaching only to those who want to learn, and to those who do not want to learn, Freemasonry does not teach to them. Of course, this has been said over and over, yet it continues to fall on deaf ears.

The morals that Masonic degrees in the Blue Lodge teach are rooted directly in Old Testament teaching, stories, allegory and symbolism. By strict definition, said morality comes from God Himself. Of course, this has been said over and over, and it continues to fall on deaf ears.

Good words of wisdom, but in practice both here and in countless other anti-Masonic discussions, the reality is that it is worded more like, "Love the man, hate the sin, then chastise the man and what he does repeatedly until he either leaves our holier-than-thou fold or agrees with us. Now stop bothering us you heathen." Or something along those lines. You get the idea.

Oh I get it, the fact that masonry is usually catorgorized on most discussion boards as " Unorthodox Theology" or " Cults - Groups ", doesn't mean a thing, thank you Jim for the enlightened observation.

Keep in mind your secret hand shakes and secret passwords open lodge doors where the bible and or the Koran lay on the alter in the center of the lodge.

And if I believed that the Blue lodge was rooted in the old testament beliefs What does freemasonry claim to teach to those who want to learn?

Explain to us Jim how masonry instructs and teaches man the word of God clearer and in greater depth than the Eternal words of the Holy Bible inspired by the one and only true and living God the father God the Son and God the Holy spirit.

Explain to us Jim where in the bible does JESUS direct his disciples to a continued learning process offered only by masonic instruction in a lodge to learn a craft that would help them understand the word of God

This I have to hear .... the floor is yours Jim you have my complete attention sir , I have paper and pen waiting to hear the chapter and verse your going to refer to...

O.F.F. · Sep 30, 2010

Wayne said:
Who cares if it's "only" hundreds of millions as opposed to "billions," In fact, that's one of the reasons it's so difficult to get a handle on total Masonic giving in the first place.

If you didn't care you wouldn't have corrected me with quickly "bragging" about it being three million dollars a day when I said a million.

Masons don't really try to hammer all that out and parade it around anyway. In fact, Masonry probably is more behind-the-scenes than any other organization you could name, in low-keying issues of charitable involvement.

Are you serious? All anyone has to do is google the phrase, "Masonic Charity in the United States is in excess of three million dollars a day" and they will find pages and pages of hundreds and hundreds of Masonic sources citing either one, two and three million dollars a day. And you'll find the farther back in time you go the figure cited is $1M/day, but the closer you get to the present the higher the number, from $2M to now $3M/day.

Wayne said:
You can also check these out:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/caring.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/savehist.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/helpinghands.htm

And you call that "more behind-the-scenes than any other organization you could name, in low-keying issues of charitable involvement;" the way the information is presented in those links sounds a lot like "bragging" to me.

In fact, that's one of the reasons it's so difficult to get a handle on total Masonic giving in the first place. . .Heck, even bessel.org and masonicinfo.com put together--two of the most ready sources of Masonic information--do not have a detailed analysis of it. But I tend to think that is more a result of (1) it being low-keyed to begin with, and (2) it being such a natural outflow of the many exhortations to charity that are found in Masonry--neither of which lends itself to the desires of those who wish to be bean-counters.

Since Masonry itself really doesn't even know how much they give in charity, and cannot back up any quantity claimed with any quantifiable verifiable data, they're just paying lip-service, and you just underscored my point of violating the 9th commandment! Therefore, for you to excuse me of the same, makes you a hypocrite. Moreover, when you claim to be biblically trained, but make the following mistake, it calls into question whether you really are a pastor at all, or if you ever even attended a seminary.

Boast? I cited Matthew 7, that we should let our light shine so that others may "see your good works and glorify God the Father," and you call it a BOAST?????

Biblically knowledgeable Christians know that "see your good works and glorify God the Father" comes from Matthew 5, not chapter 7. But despite that fact, the verse doesn't imply, nor does it infer, that Christians should boast about or flaunt their good works. Is that what they taught you in seminary, or maybe you could cite the biblical commentary you got that idea from, or is it just your own faulty interpretation of the passage?

The purpose in letting our light so shine by doing good works is so that others will glorify God, not ourselves (Guzik). The object of our shining is not that men may see how good we are, nor even see us at all, but that they may see grace in us and God in us, and cry, ‘What a Father these people must have’ (Spurgeon).

If it was about glorifying God, Freemasonry would never have to "boast" about their giving, as you cited or from what was seen by them in the google search I mentioned above. Instead the world would be declaring just how great God is as a result of Masonic philanthropy. But that cannot be found on google or any other search engine, because it is a claim that has never been made. Why? Because Masonry is too busy giving itself glory, and as Jesus said as a result, they have received their reward in full.

I don't mind "boasting" in the Lord. In fact, I find it a striking point of information, when you consider that most Masons are also Christians, and that, in my experience, they are invariably among the best givers to the church as well.

Evidently you also have no clue as to what it means to "boast in the Lord." If you truly do know what it means you would not, in the same breath, brag about the giving of Masons who claim to be Christians. Like Rebecca Livermore wrote:

We've all heard people who "give all the glory to God" when they get up to give a testimony, and of course all glory should be given to God. But sometimes even when people say, "It was only because of God," or, "I couldn't do it without the Lord's help," they are still trying to bring attention to the fact that they did something great.

That's exact what you just did; making a futile attempt to "boast in the Lord" or "give God glory" while giving Masons props at the same time. Boasting in the Lord means avoiding opportunities to commend ourselves.

As for Matthew 6, it would be interesting to sift through my files and see how many times and on how many threads, it has been ME pointing that text out to YOU.

It certainly would be interesting, especially since Matthew 6 addresses Giving to the Needy (hence my current admonition to you), Prayer, Fasting, Treasures in Heaven, and Do Not Worry. Please sift through your files and tell us which of these you've pointed out to me, and why. If it happened, I sure don't recall you ever addressing me with this chapter. And since you can't seem to tell the difference between Matthew 5 and Matthew 7, how on earth can we expect you to be able to tell anyone about chapter 6?

But for you to pretend that you never saw any of the MULTITUDE of times that I myself have presented YOU with the admonitions of Matthew 6, reeks of dishonesty and deception.

For you to pretend to be a pastor who knows the Word of God when it's abundantly clear that you don't, I'd say that reeks with scriptural stupidity and biblical ignorance; not to mention self-deception.

ChristianMasonJim · Sep 30, 2010

ALX25 said:
Oh I get it, the fact that masonry is usually catorgorized on most discussion boards as " Unorthodox Theology" or " Cults - Groups ", doesn't mean a thing, thank you Jim for the enlightened observation.

No, it doesn't mean a thing. It is simply because those who categorize Freemasonry as such are typically specifically biased against it.

ALX25 said:
Keep in mind your secret hand shakes and secret passwords open lodge doors where the bible and or the Koran lay on the alter in the center of the lodge.

This is an assertion that is not completely true. As stated numerous times, that is not the case in South Carolina. The Bible is required to be open in any tyled lodge. I agree that it may occur elsewhere, but it is not the global rule. Of course, throughout this thread as well as elsewhere, though often speaking generally, the focus has been on Freemasonry as experienced in South Carolina.

ALX25 said:
And if I believed that the Blue lodge was rooted in the old testament beliefs What does freemasonry claim to teach to those who want to learn?

Why not petition a lodge and find out? Instead of speculating, why not experience it first-hand?

ALX25 said:
Explain to us Jim how masonry instructs and teaches man the word of God clearer and in greater depth than the Eternal words of the Holy Bible inspired by the one and only true and living God the father God the Son and God the Holy spirit.

Freemasonry does not instruct and teach man the word of God clearer and in greater depth than the Eternal words of the Holy Bible, and it never claimed to do so. If you want the word of God as found in the Bible, read the Bible.

ALX25 said:
Explain to us Jim where in the bible does JESUS direct his disciples to a continued learning process offered only by masonic instruction in a lodge to learn a craft that would help them understand the word of God

The Bible does not instruct us to learn through Masonic instruction as you suggest. Neither does it instruct one to go to college, take continuing education classes, buy a car, or join a bowling league. The Bible does, however instructs on educating ones' self. And that is what Freemasonry is about.

ALX25 · Sep 30, 2010

ChristianMasonJim said:
No, it doesn't mean a thing. It is simply because those who categorize Freemasonry as such are typically specifically biased against it.

This is an assertion that is not completely true. As stated numerous times, that is not the case in South Carolina. The Bible is required to be open in any tyled lodge. I agree that it may occur elsewhere, but it is not the global rule. Of course, throughout this thread as well as elsewhere, though often speaking generally, the focus has been on Freemasonry as experienced in South Carolina.

Why not petition a lodge and find out? Instead of speculating, why not experience it first-hand?

Freemasonry does not instruct and teach man the word of God clearer and in greater depth than the Eternal words of the Holy Bible, and it never claimed to do so. If you want the word of God as found in the Bible, read the Bible.

The Bible does not instruct us to learn through Masonic instruction as you suggest. Neither does it instruct one to go to college, take continuing education classes, buy a car, or join a bowling league. The Bible does, however instructs on educating ones' self. And that is what Freemasonry is about.

I smell wayne majors all over your answers, news flash sir Im an Ex-mason and I travelled as a mason alot further than good ole South Carloina, who told you the discussions were limited to your lodge and to south carolina, Im laughing Jim, you speak of and defend masonry and you have no understanding of the many lodges who practice alot more than you know, amazing .... whats the point of Masonry Jim congrats you just made my point

And by the way the bible does not instruct on educating ones self, the bible instructs man in the eternal words of truth spoken to man from God, the God the Alpha and the Omega, JESUS God in the Flesh, JESUS who allowed his precious blood to be shed for our sins, our lord and saviour, the name above all names, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Divine, spotless without sin, and you think your mens club is to petitioned for education or instruction..

KJV Mathew 4:4
But he answered and said , It is written , Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jim you've been hood-winked and cable-towed barefoot into a lodge blind-folded, JESUS never led the captive into captivity, he never led any man into half truths or partial truths he led them to the father he led them to truth. Freemasonry simply does not do that, its not structured for that.

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