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"Deal with."
Yeah, kind of -- St. Nicholas punched Arius in the face.
Agreed; always exceptions to the general rule.Can't argue with that except to say I know of a few exceptions.
Organization vs. organism. In general, a hierarchical organization that prioritizes the growth and maintenance of the organization over the growth and development of the organism. By default, the structure and operation of the organization consisting of its facilities and staff become more important than the organism which is the body of believers. In effect the institutional church ends up being the one served instead of the one serving. Another notable aspect is that in the institutional church, ministry is performed by a select few who are paid instead of all parts of the body functioning in their proper places. The distinction between clergy and lay persons is left intact despite our supposed belief in the priesthood of all believers. Thus the staff and volunteers end up doing 80% of the work while the rest of the 20% spectate. This is dysfunctional by any standard.In the West, yes, particularly the US.
But then, what is your particular definition of "the institution church?"
If we examine 1 Cor. 14:26 as the basis for what the Apostle Paul himself instructed as to what should happen when the body of Christ should do as we meet together, it becomes quite obvious that the vast majority of churches neglect to do what he instructs. That is the very reason why it is so "bizarre" to you as Paul's instructions are foreign to you. Consequently failure to do so results in a church which is not strengthened/edified as most in the pews remain as spectators instead of active participants.Compare/contrast models like this fail to take into account the many and varied social, political and even spiritual differences the Early Church faced as compared to what the Church today faces.
In the ancient world, it was not unheard of for women to be segregated from men during worship. But, as I think most of us would admit, that fact does not obligate the Church today to segregate women from men during worship.
Again, people are welcome to do whatever they like. But this home community thing is just bizarre.
Am I to believe that you really believe that a "Christian" ruler is justified in murdering people - in particular one's own family? There is no evidence that those put to death attempted to assassinate Constantine as you are merely offering your own conjecture. Certainly, attempted assassination is a crime which warrants capital punishment such as public hanging on a cross in those times but isn't it peculiar that Constantine instead chose to use rather surreptitious methods to kill his family which undermines your claim. The OT never commends wrong-doing by the kings of Israel which is often times why Israel was judged as its leaders/kings kept on sinning resulting in Israel's judgment despite God's long-suffering.Yes? And how many judges and kings of Israel had to do similar things? Both those people attempted to assassinate Constantine, you do what you have to do when you are a ruler.
As for what you say about theology - is easy for you to say that now when all these things have been firmly established, but all you have to do is look at history and all the theological debate and chaos in the early church to see that what you claim is not the case.
Am I to believe that you really believe that a "Christian" ruler is justified in murdering people - in particular one's own family? There is no evidence that those put to death attempted to assassinate Constantine as you are merely offering your own conjecture. Certainly, attempted assassination is a crime which warrants capital punishment such as public hanging on a cross in those times but isn't it peculiar that Constantine instead chose to use rather surreptitious methods to kill his family which undermines your claim. The OT never commends wrong-doing by the kings of Israel which is often times why Israel was judged as its leaders/kings kept on sinning resulting in Israel's judgment despite God's long-suffering.
The gospel has always been so simple that even a child can understand it. You have chosen to take the opposite approach preferring the incomplete formulation of doctrine as the rationale for excusing people's lack of understanding and compliance of what is plainly demanded of in Scripture. That is of course your prerogative. I prefer to believe the words of Jesus when he stated “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 18:3).
North Koreans can't worship in public, and I know the details of this better than many (I did an official military intelligence analysis of the condition of North Korean Christians back in the mid-90s). Christians in North Korea were tortured so horribly that I saw a combat-hardened Marine colonel get three pages into my report, turn white as a sheet, and push it away saying, "I can't read any more of that."
But they do evangelize--under incredibly dangerous conditions, because a North Korean Christian never knows if the person he mentions Christ to won't be the person who turns him in.
Yet...the Body of Christ has grown tenfold in North Korea since the mid 90s.
I think earlier you asked me do I believe the apostles were inspired by God? I think scripture is inspired by God I can’t say to what extent that is.....
I do however have a question about this authority you are taking about. When you say a place for authority do you mean as in someone, or a group of people who get to decide what interpretation of scripture is correct?
Indeed, historically murky which is why we disagree. May I ask where I wrote that you are rejecting the gospel? I can recall no such thing as the basis for your accusation.Considering the top suspicion historically by the accounts of people at that time was that Crispus and Fausta were in a sexual relationship with each other, and plotting against Constantine, it would be justified. I say attempt to assassinate in the sense of a plot, not a failed attempt- the strike was pre-emptive. What is the real difference between assassination and execution as a ruler? None. Why? Because Romans were notorious for revolting in support of various claimants.
You judge a man on a situation historically murky at best. I side with the Christian Saints who knew him at the time, not the biased opinions of modern secular scholars who you have accepted. Judging me by telling me I am rejecting the gospel because of this is utterly ridiculous.
In many cases it is. I'm not fond of the American Church Concert approach to Christianity. It's an outgrowth of the 1960s and Baby Boomer seekers. But institutional churches don't mean personal spiritual care doesn't happen. Just last night my wife and I had dinner with close friends from our "institutional church", and we spent the evening talking about Christ. At that same church I know people who, if I asked for help, would drop everything and be there in minutes.
I don't know of any evidence at all that agrees with all Scripture , to even try to show that Constantine or those with him were ever right. Rather, the objective true evidence supports that they were continually wrong and wicked.There is no evidence that those put to death attempted to assassinate Constantine as you are merely offering your own conjecture.
That's great that you know people in church you can truly fellowship with and bond with outside of church.
But for us, that is the substance of "church" itself.
Well, that's your definition, but it's not mine and not necessarily the OP's.
But you have not given your description of what the church organization should be.
I consider myself connected to all other true believers around the world by way of us being members of that ONE body.
Indeed, historically murky which is why we disagree. May I ask where I wrote that you are rejecting the gospel? I can recall no such thing as the basis for your accusation.
Compare/contrast models like this fail to take into account the many and varied social, political and even spiritual differences the Early Church faced as compared to what the Church today faces.
In the ancient world, it was not unheard of for women to be segregated from men during worship. But, as I think most of us would admit, that fact does not obligate the Church today to segregate women from men during worship.
Again, people are welcome to do whatever they like. But this home community thing is just bizarre.
I don't have any special definitions. Just the usual one: the right to control, command, or determine.
Organization vs. organism. In general, a hierarchical organization that prioritizes the growth and maintenance of the organization over the growth and development of the organism. By default, the structure and operation of the organization consisting of its facilities and staff become more important than the organism which is the body of believers...
Ahh. Ok. I see. You see it as being pretty much like any secular business model with a CEO.
Well, that does define the basic structure of most any given (c)hurch you see with a facility and staffing within.
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