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It's ironic, isn't it? Elioenai26 argues that many atheists refuse to believe in God for "emotional reasons".
Perhaps we should be as uncharitable as he is by assuming that he believes in God for "emotional reasons"? Emotional reasons such as not wanting to believe that he is "an accidental collocation of atoms with no intrinsic worth, no intrinsic value, no destiny, and no different fundamentally than a maggot or worm."
I am not "pretending" you said anything like that at all.
I am plainly stating that that is what you are if you deny the existence of God.
If there is no God who made you in His Image, then you are an accident, a miniscule speck in a colossal accident of cosmic proportions. You, like the cockroach or worm, have no ultimate purpose, you were not made for a specific end, you have no intrinsic worth or value imbued upon you by a Creator who made you, you are simply atoms arranged in a certain way and one day, when your biological functions cease due to age, illness, disease, you will cease to be. You will return to the dust from whence your ancestors arose....
You are the accidental result of natural forces acting upon matter. The cosmos is indifferent to you, you are nothing special at all in the face of the vast cosmos. You are no better off or no worse off than the maggot that eats its fill on a dead dog's guts.
To think any differently is to be guilty of species-ism.
Read Nietzsche's the Madman....
Jean-Paul Sartre observed, several hours or several years make no difference once you have lost eternity. Sartre writes elsewhere of the "nausea" of existence.
Camus expresses the same sentiment. At the end of his brief novel The Stranger, Camus's protagonist finds that in one overwhelming epiphany that the universe has no meaning because there is no God to give it meaning.
Kai Nielsen, an atheist philosopher in the end confesses: "We have not been able to show that reason requires the moral point of view, or that all really rational persons, unhoodwinked by myth or ideology, need not be individual egoists or classical amoralists. Reason doesn't decide here. The picture I have painted for you is not a pleasant one. Reflection on it depresses me . . . . Pure practical reason, even with a good knowledge of the facts, will not take you to morality." Kai Nielsen, "Why Should I Be Moral?" American Philosophical Quarterly 21 (1984): 90.
One philosopher has written: "Human life is mounted upon a subhuman pedestal and must shift for itself alone in the heart of a silent and mindless universe.''W.E. Hocking, Types of Philosophy (New York: Scribner's, 1959), 27.
Bertrand Russell wrote that: we must build our lives upon "the firm foundation of unyielding despair." Bertrand Russell, "A Free Man's Worship," in Why I Am Not a Christian, ed. P. Edwards (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1957), 107.http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-absurdity-of-life-without-god#_edn6
Ernst Bloch when speaking of how modern men who deny God in order to live, must borrow the belief in immortality writes: "modern man does not feel the chasm that unceasingly surrounds him and that will certainly engulf him at last. Through these remnants, he saves his sense of self-identity. Through them the impression arises that man is not perishing, but only that one day the world has the whim no longer to appear to him." "This quite shallow courage feasts on a borrowed credit card. It lives from earlier hopes and the support that they once had provided." Ernst Bloch, Das Prinzip Hoffnung, 2d ed., 2 vols. (Frankfurt am Main: Suhrkamp Verlag, 1959), 2:360-1When addressing the American Academy for the Advancement of Science in 1991, Dr. L. D. Rue saw where all of this hopelessness and meaningless was leading to and advocated that we deceive ourselves by means of some "Noble Lie" into thinking that we and the universe still have value. (Loyal D. Rue, "The Saving Grace of Noble Lies," address to the American Academy for the Advancement of Science, February, 1991)
So KC, if there is no God, then like these men have concluded, you are no better off or worse off than anything else that has ever lived and perished.
This is atheism, this is what you must come to terms with.
I have said for some, that is the reason.....continue....
You seem to be mad at me for repeating what atheists themselves have said.
Why would you be angry at me? Why not be angry with them?
I am not making this stuff up. I have better things to do than sit here and conjure up lies in thin air to make atheism look pitiful. Atheism would be a pitiful view even if I was not here to point out what some of its own have said.
Personally, my relationship with God is not based on some blind faith or belief. Rather, I know God exists. I know He exists just like you know that your best friend or significant other exists.
Appealing to contemporary philosophers won't save you. We are talking about your arguments, not theirs.
I've demonstrated your question-begging on at least one previous occasion. Your premises and your conclusion both subsumed the existence of a deity, thus begging the question for a deity.
Could you elaborate on that? What is the nature of this relationship?
You're switching the burden of proof.
Which makes the interpretation no less uncharitable than assuming that your belief in a deity stems from "emotional reasons".
And I'm just pointing out what you have said. In this post, you depict atheism as equivalent to nihilism. Presumably you are uncomfortable with nihilism and this constitutes an emotional reason for your theism. See... I can be uncharitable in my interpretation also.
You keep repeating that you "know", but you stop short of actually demonstrating how it is that you know.
The arguments I use are the arguments they use.
Do you think these arguments I have been using are originally and wholly mine? That I conjured them up one day?
These arguments have been around for hundreds of years. Some of them for millenia....
You have demonstrated you do not know what question begging is. That much you have demonstrated.
If you are interested in knowing about what a relationship with God is like, go to Him, talk to Him. Read the testimonies of billions who have had this relationship. Read the Bible. Read the Psalms. Read about David who was a man after God's own heart. Knowledge abounds, but knowledge is not sufficient in and of itself to fill that void within you. Only God can.
You insinuate the God of the Bible is fictional. This is a claim to knowledge and as such must be justified.
The truth, to some, is harsh, especially when it runs counter to everything you hold dear.
Atheism is nihilism. Nietzsche knew this.
Life without God is ultimately nihilistic.
I know this may be hard for you to come to terms with, but I hope it allows you to see how utterly ridiculous atheism is.
How do you know you have a relationship with your father? Do you have a father? What is your relationship with your father like?
More quote-mining.
Less than a day ago you insisted that you weren't "insinuating anything" about atheists and their capacity to act morally.
Today you go beyond insinuating nihilism to declaring that atheism and nihilism are practically equivalent.
Did you at least do the quote-mining yourself? Or did someone else do that for you? You never answered my question about whether you've actually read Nietzsche beyond the snippets you've seen on apologist websites.
Quote mining is fallacious only if one takes a person's quote and uses it in a manner that "misrepresents" what the author was saying.
I have never done that. I have not misrepresented anyone whom I have quoted.
If one is a consistent atheist, he must be a nihilist. This is controversial only to those who have not come to terms with what atheism entails.
I have read Nietzsche. He is the only person that I know of who could express in words, what atheism really was when it was taken to its logical conclusion.
In a word...."nothingness".
Your particular version of the argument is what I've been addressing (i.e., the way in which you've elucidated the arguments in question).
By way of illustration, in your version of the moral argument, both your premises and your conclusion subsumed a deity.
That really doesn't answer my question. You are claiming to have certain knowledge. I am asking you to demonstrate how it is that you have that knowledge.
You seem to be confused about where the burden of proof lies in this situation. This video should clear up your misunderstanding:
Apparently, according to you, I hold nihilism dear.You seem to have very little knowledge of what I hold dear. I at least am not uncharitable in my interpretation of your theism, which is more than I can say for you.
Atheism is what it is.
The moral argument that I use is NOT MY argument. I did not formulate it. A research professor of Philosophy at Talbot with a Ph.D in both Philosophy and Theology formulated it and defends it in scholarly publications.
I do not have a version of the argument different than his.... I use his argument.
I can see now how you are thinking.
Several things to note:
1. You said both premises "subsumed" a deity. This is false. Premise (ii) of the moral argument that Dr. Craig uses states:
(ii) Objective moral values and duties exist.
I see no "deity" in there whatsoever.
2. The Moral Argument as formulated by Dr. Craig is an example of a "Modus Tollens" argument and is logically valid as is shown below.
Modus Tollens, formally:
P → Q [P implies Q]
¬Q [not Q]
∴¬P [therefore, not P]
The Moral Argument contains "not's" that are appropriately reciprocal:
1. If God does not exist [P], then [→] objective moral values do not exist [Q]
2. Objective moral values do exist [¬Q]
3. Therefore [∴], God exists [¬P]
3. No proponent of the moral argument claims that the reason we should accept (1) is because it is trivially true. Rather he appeals to the reasons atheists themselves give for thinking (1) to be true. As you observe, the atheist like Nietzsche, Russell, or Sartre does not regard (1) as merely trivially true. So dialectically, the theist is in a comfortable position in presenting this argument to non-theists.
4. The following would be an example of an argument that begs the question:
i. Either God exists or the moon is made of green cheese.
ii. The moon is not made of green cheese.
iii. Therefore, God exists.
In the above argument, no one would believe the first premiss unless he already believed the conclusion to be true. The argument is thus circular or, as we say, begs the question.
5. You seem to think that if the Word "God" appears in the first premise of an argument and then it appears in the conclusion that this is question begging.
This is just based on a misunderstanding of what a Modus Tollens form is.
The argument has two premises. The first premise is a conditional or "if-then" statement, for example that if P then Q. The second premise is that it is not the case that Q . From these two premises, it can be logically concluded that it is not the case that P.
Consider an example:
If the watch-dog detects an intruder, the dog will bark.The dog did not barkTherefore, no intruder was detected by the watch-dog.According to you, the above would be question begging because "watch-dog" "subsumes" as you like to put it, in both premise (1) and also in the conclusion. But clearly, that is the way the argument is designed!!!!!! The modus tollens or modus ponens has within its premise any entitiy (e) waiting to be brought forth and validated in the conclusion via the laws of logic. So this is simply a valid logic form, not question begging.
I don't think you realise how pompous the above text reads, and I certainly won't go into that. But the objection still holds: the first premise is a tautology. You've defined the concept of 'objective moral values' as "moral values and duties which stem from God as their locus". You go on to say that these objective values do not have a reality separate from God. This means that their objectivity is inseparable from their divine reality. By defining objective moral values in this way, you've made the first premise tautological: If God does not exist, then objective moral values (which are defined as those values which stem from God) do not exist either. I can see why you think that atheists must accept your first premise. They must accept it because it is trivially true.
Asking me the above is like me asking you to demonstrate how you have the knowledge that your father is your father.
I do not need to watch a video in order to know that if you make a claim, you have the burden of proof to support said claim.
I have read Nietzsche.
You have either misunderstood what I've been saying or you are misrepresenting it (in which case this is a strawman).
I've already explained this, and I've referred you to my explanation multiple times:
Begging the question is an informal fallacy in which the content of the conclusion is assumed, either directly or indirectly, in the premises of an argument. By defining 'objective moral values' in the way that you have, your argument begs the question for a deity.
Given that it is an informal fallacy, I have no idea why you're going on about valid logical form.
I can demonstrate that my father is my father. Can you demonstrate how you have the knowledge you claim to have?
Dr. Craig did not formulate the moral argument to read as follows:
1. If God does not exist, then moral values and duties that come from God do not exist.
2. Moral values and duties that come from God exist.
3. Therefore, God exists
In fact, the argument in question is formulated as:
1. If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties exist.
3. Therefore, God exists
Notice in premise (1) the word objective simply means independent of human opinion. It does not mean "from God".
And more importantly, even if you believe that premise (2) is correct, your belief is immaterial so long as you can´t demonstrate that it is.Even if one, such as myself, believes that objective morality finds its locus in God, my belief is immaterial so long as the word objective in premise (1) is defined as "independent of human opinion".
Morality independent of subjective human could exist in various ways. I have given three examples above. If it´s true that most atheist philosophers agree with premise (1), they either haven´t thought it through or they were using a different definition than Craig did. I´d bet on the latter, seeing that hardly any of them formed their philosophies in response to Craig´s definition.In fact sir, one thing you have failed to realize is that most atheistic philosophers AGREE with premise (1). They recognize that in the absence of God, there is no good basis for grounding morality objectively in the sense of it being "independent of subjective human opinion".
Well, if that´s his definition (as opposed to a definition that would render the argument circular), "God" in premise (1) and in the conclusion could be replaced by "aliens", "elves" or "sentient, intelligent insects", and the argument would work just as welll.
Notice in premise (1) the word objective simply means independent of human opinion. Or aliens. Or elves. Or any other contingent beings. It does not mean "from God".
Well, if that´s his definition (as opposed to a definition that would render the argument circular), "God" in premise (1) and in the conclusion could be replaced by "aliens", "elves" or "sentient, intelligent insects", and the argument would work just as welll.
And more importantly, even if you believe that premise (2) is correct, your belief is immaterial so long as you can´t demonstrate that it is.
Morality independent of subjective human could exist in various ways.
I have given three examples above. If it´s true that most atheist philosophers agree with premise (1), they either haven´t thought it through or they were using a different definition than Craig did.
I´d bet on the latter, seeing that hardly any of them formed their philosophies in response to Craig´s definition.
Actually, I even question your claim that "most atheist philosophers agree with premise (1)" (when applying the definition above).
Notice in premise (1) the word objective simply means independent of human opinion. Or aliens. Or elves. Or any other contingent beings. It does not mean "from God".
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