The Abortion Question

prestonw · Jul 6, 2004

The standard christian stance on abortion is a strict "no," and this view makes sense under normal circumstances, but I would like to make a few points and them see what other views exist on the issue.

1) Is a fetus in the womb of "equal value" as a born child?

I think Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV) answers this question:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. 23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life...

Clearly, if someone kills the fetus in the womb, it is not equal to harming the woman. It is simply a fine.

2) Is a woman's life more valuable then that of an unborn child?

I think the above verse answers this question as well, but I will say a bit more on this topic from experience. I've heard agurements from some Christians that abortion is wrong under any circumstance, even when the woman's life is at risk. Does any believe that the potential of a healthy baby is worth the risk of killing the mother? What if the life of the woman and the baby are both at risk?

3) Do women have the right to choose the fate of their body?

I hear many men talking about this issue like they understand it completely. A women who is raped, abused, or whatever has a big choice ahead of her and no one can know what this is like. Does a women have the right to choose what happens to her body...isn't this between her and God, not her and all the men and women against it?

Jesus_help_me · Jul 6, 2004

ok i no u are curouse about what the christian view is on abortion and it is a NO. becuase God said that every unborn child is his children, becuase he knows the childs name and what the child will hold on earth even before it is born. SO it would be murder becuase you are taking ones life for another to keep it secret so it is a sin. Beucase a fetus has the vitals of a living thing it breaths and feeds in the mothers wom and moves so it would be a sin of murder. and a women raped would be between the men who did it and god becuase she did not do anything to afflict what happened to her. all iam trying to say abortion is murder in god's eye, now it might not be a big deal to those who do it but when they are infront of god they will have to answer.

elginX · Jul 6, 2004

prestonw
If you want to know if a fetus is a human life equal to the life of the mother please check out the new 4D imaging techniques. Thanks to science we can now dispel the myths about fetal development that allow abortions to be legal. Very soon the people will not be able to plead ignorance when they see a "fetus" at only a few weeks gestation doing the same things that they aaww over when a newborn does.

Jinn_Ku · Jul 6, 2004

1) Yes, it is of equal value. Is an elderly man as valuable as a young man? They are both human, they are both alive, and they are both created by God.

"according as the woman's husband will lay upon him;" The woman's husband could call for death. God is simply being merciful in allowing the man to lessen the penalty, if he so desires.

2) Abortion is still sin even if the doctor says both are at risk. The doctor has virtually no control over the health of the child or mother, God does. To say it is okay to end the life of an innocent human because the doctor says you should is to place the word of the doctor above the word of God. He is in control, not the doctor. It is truly amazing how many times the doctors are proven to be wrong because people pray rather than take the doctor's word.

3) Yes, a woman has the right to do whatever she wishes to her body. The problem is most people seem to think the baby inside of her is part of her body. Are you aware that the DNA of the child is different from that of the mother? The DNA of the mother's appendix is identical to that of the other tissue of her body. So yes, a woman can cut her appendix out any time she wants. But when someone starts messing with the innocent child growing insde her, they're dealing with a higher power.

For a graphic but accurate resource, watch the documentary "A Silent Scream." It is done by one of the founders of Plan Parenthood, who changed his ways of thinking after doing this research.

Sketcher · Jul 6, 2004

Serious injury to the woman, or to the baby?

DrPepper · Jul 6, 2004

prestonw said:
3) Do women have the right to choose the fate of their body?

I hear many men talking about this issue like they understand it completely. A women who is raped, abused, or whatever has a big choice ahead of her and no one can know what this is like. Does a women have the right to choose what happens to her body...isn't this between her and God, not her and all the men and women against it?

Pregnancies resulting from rape are extremely rare.

Here's the Question and Answer from the prolife.org.uk website:

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Q. What if the pregnancy resulted from rape?[/font]
A. Abortion does not undo the rape; it adds another horrible experience, leaving the woman feeling doubly a victim. Putting aside the unfairness of an innocent child being killed for her father's crime, there is some evidence that it is better psychologically for the woman if she can be helped to continue the pregnancy, legitimately seeing herself as a heroine who has taken charge of the situation and protected her child. She can then if she wishes hand over the baby to loving adoptive parents as a positive closure to her dreadful experience, or choose to keep the baby herself. In real life, as opposed to fiction, violent rape is extraordinarily unlikely to result in pregnancy, and women tend to love their babies even if they hate the father. (One of the worst cruelties of slavery was that children fathered on slaves by their masters were sold separately from their loving mothers.) It is also extremely difficult to prove the truth or falsehood of an allegation of rape. Roe v. Wade, which led to a million abortions a year in the U.S.A., was based on a case where a woman claimed to have been raped but admitted fifteen years later that she had lied. Rape cases make up a very small proportion of the hundreds of thousands of abortions every year in the U.K."

prestonw · Jul 6, 2004

Jinn_Ku said:
1) Yes, it is of equal value. Is an elderly man as valuable as a young man? They are both human, they are both alive, and they are both created by God.

"according as the woman's husband will lay upon him;" The woman's husband could call for death. God is simply being merciful in allowing the man to lessen the penalty, if he so desires.

God calls for absolute punishiment in one case, a life of a life, but in the other case (when the unborn child is killed), he is indifferent. Man is left with the choice of what to do in this case. If these two were truely equal, wouldn't have God established equal punishment for both?

Jinn_Ku said:
2) Abortion is still sin even if the doctor says both are at risk. The doctor has virtually no control over the health of the child or mother, God does. To say it is okay to end the life of an innocent human because the doctor says you should is to place the word of the doctor above the word of God. He is in control, not the doctor. It is truly amazing how many times the doctors are proven to be wrong because people pray rather than take the doctor's word.

This is a ridiculous statement. God never said don't trust a doctor, did he? I am sorry, but if I had to choose between my wife and her unborn child, I would pick my wife. If that makes me a murderer in your eyes, so be it. But, If my wife died when I didn't heed the doctor's advice, I wouldn't blame God, I would blame myself.

Jinn_Ku said:
3) Yes, a woman has the right to do whatever she wishes to her body. The problem is most people seem to think the baby inside of her is part of her body. Are you aware that the DNA of the child is different from that of the mother? The DNA of the mother's appendix is identical to that of the other tissue of her body. So yes, a woman can cut her appendix out any time she wants. But when someone starts messing with the innocent child growing insde her, they're dealing with a higher power.

This is based solely on how you view things. You can either view the unborn baby as part of her body, or as a parasite, it is your choice. During pregnency many things change with the woman's body. Did you know that many pregnent women become diabetic during pregnecy and sometimes the disorder become permenent even after giving birth? There is more to think about then just the baby and I, being male, can't imagine what it would be like.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jul 7, 2004

All life is precious to GOD, no matter the circumstances......
Find a copy of the "DIDACHE" it's very short, very clear and has a lot to say about abortion.
The "Didache" (DID A KEY) was written by the Apostles in the 1st century after Pentacost.

Forgive me....

Serapha · Jul 7, 2004

prestonw said:
The standard christian stance on abortion is a strict "no," and this view makes sense under normal circumstances, but I would like to make a few points and them see what other views exist on the issue.

1) Is a fetus in the womb of "equal value" as a born child?

I think Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV) answers this question:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. 23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life...

Clearly, if someone kills the fetus in the womb, it is not equal to harming the woman. It is simply a fine.

John Gill does an excellent commentary on this...

then thou shalt give life for life;
if death to the woman, so Jarchi and Aben Ezra interpret it; to which agrees the Targum of Jonathan,

``but if there is death in her, then ye shall judge or condemn the life of the murderer for the life of the woman;''

about which, Jarchi says, there is a difference among their doctors; some say life properly, absolutely the person himself; others say money, but not life properly; for he that intends to kill one and kills another is acquitted from death, but must pay to the heirs the price (of the person killed) as that person might be sold for in the market: and indeed it seems hard that a person that kills another at unawares should die for it; it is more reasonable that the punishment should in such a case be commuted for something less than life; and that though no satisfaction was to be taken for a wilful murderer, (Numbers 35:31) , yet it seems to imply that it might be taken for one that was so without design; as by another law cities of refuge are appointed for the manslayer at unawares: the canons of the Jews, according to Maimonides {b}, run thus;

``he that strikes a woman, and she miscarries and dies, although it is done ignorantly; lo, such an one is free from payment, and he does not pay anything, as it is said, "if there is no mischief" the Scripture does not distinguish between what is done ignorantly and presumptuously, in a thing in which there is not death by the sanhedrim, to free him from payment; in what things? when he intends the woman; but if he intends his neighbour and strikes the woman, though she dies, since her death is, without intention, lo, this is a thing in which there is not death by the sanhedrim, and he pays the price of the birth:''

the Septuagint version interprets this, not of the woman that miscarries and dies, but of the child that becomes an abortive; if that was not formed and shaped, then only a fine was to be laid, but if it was come to its proper form and shape, and so was animated or quickened, then life was to go for life: and so, according to the Salic laws, he that killed an infant in its mother's womb was to pay 8000 pence, which made two hundred shillings; but if he was the cause of a woman's miscarriage, by blows or otherwise, if the birth was animated, according to the civil law, he was to be punished with death F3: but one would think, where this is only accidental and not intended, such a punishment is too rigid and severe: however, neither this nor what follows were left to the will of a private person to inflict at his pleasure, but to the civil magistrate; and therefore no ways encourages private revenge, in favour of which it was applied by the Pharisees in Christ's time, whose gloss he refutes, (Matthew 5:38,39) nor are the words directed to the offender in this and the following cases, but to Moses, and so to all judges under him and in succession, who were to see these laws put in execution.

I would add... In Jewish tradition, they did not consider the soul to be given at conception but for males, 40 days after conception, and for females, 90 days after conception.... which has a bearing on the "judgment" of whether an unborn child is formed or not. Since the fee is to compensate for the unborn child, it should be considered of "equal value" to a born child.

2) Is a woman's life more valuable then that of an unborn child?

I think the above verse answers this question as well, but I will say a bit more on this topic from experience. I've heard agurements from some Christians that abortion is wrong under any circumstance, even when the woman's life is at risk. Does any believe that the potential of a healthy baby is worth the risk of killing the mother? What if the life of the woman and the baby are both at risk?

Are you asking in terms of the passage and Judaic teachings or simply for opinion? In Judaism, women were held in special regard concerning the "life giving" process... thus while it appears to be discriminatory concerning the purification of women after giving birth to male children versus female children, the reality is, the life giving process was doubly important when a woman gave birth to a daughter, another life giving process...

3) Do women have the right to choose the fate of their body?

I hear many men talking about this issue like they understand it completely. A women who is raped, abused, or whatever has a big choice ahead of her and no one can know what this is like. Does a women have the right to choose what happens to her body...isn't this between her and God, not her and all the men and women against it?

No one has the right to chose the fate of their body... their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and it no longer belongs to them, but to God.

~serapha~

nb_christseeker · Jul 7, 2004

I tend to look at it this way, I hope this helps anyone. 3 scenarios.

1) A woman comes to Jesus who has just gotten an abortion and she feels bad about it, and repents.
Jesus accepts her, and loves her, and is willing to welcome her into his kingdom because he died for her sins, including this one. He tells her to sin no more.

2) A woman wants Jesus to perform an abortion.
Jesus will not perform an abortion on her. He is known for raising the dead to life, not the other way around.

Isn't there a verse about causing little ones to stumble and a millstone around their neck? I don't know if that applies to the unborn, or if that's more metaphorical, but they are quite little. If Jesus wouldn't peform an abortion, I don't think it women should choose to do so. If Jesus would still love a woman who did do that who repented, then I love her as well and forgive her. We are one in Christ Jesus.

We love because God loved us first.

Jinn_Ku · Jul 7, 2004

Prestonw,

"The standard christian stance on abortion is a strict "no," and this view makes sense under normal circumstances, but I would like to make a few points and then see what other views exist on the issue."

Do not come here and say such things if what you claimed is not your true intent. You asked for opinions, and after mine was given, you stated it is "a ridiculous statement." After reading your response to my post, it is clear you would not like to see what other views exist, but rather wish to justify those you already keep. That is fine, but you must realize the "pro-choice" ideal simply cannot coincide with a Christian lifestyle.

Please, do some research into this topic, or at least think about this topic before attempting to tear down that which you do not understand. I ask you now four painfully simple questions in which I fully expect a public answer to.

1. Is the fetus human?

2. Is the fetus alive prior to the abortion?

3. Is the fetus alive after the abortion?

4. If the fetus is human, alive prior to the abortion, and without life after the abortion, how can you (or any one else) claim the act which ends a human's life is not murder?

I await your reply.

Proverbs 6
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,

nb_christseeker · Jul 7, 2004

As for what to put into law? I don't know. When Jesus is King in the thousand year reign, I doubt abortions will be legal. As for now, we live in a fallen world and the antichrist spirit is working doing all kinds of bad things. The problem with abortion protesters is they don't realize this: We do not fight against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers.

nb_christseeker · Jul 7, 2004

No one cares what you know until they know you care.thats a good quote... very useful to my current situation. coolness.

prestonw · Jul 8, 2004

Jinn_Ku said:
Do not come here and say such things if what you claimed is not your true intent. You asked for opinions, and after mine was given, you stated it is "a ridiculous statement." After reading your response to my post, it is clear you would not like to see what other views exist, but rather wish to justify those you already keep.

Sorry for the misconception. I guess I should have said "In my opinion, that is a ridiculous statement." I am looking for opinions and while I respect yours, I think telling people not to believe a doctor a bad thing. That was my problem with it.

Jinn_Ku said:
That is fine, but you must realize the "pro-choice" ideal simply cannot coincide with a Christian lifestyle.

Many people confuse pro-choice with pro-abortion. I am not in support of everyone getting an abortion. I think abortions are wrong in many regards. I disagree with your statement though. Sometimes an abortion is required to save a life and I completely support these.

Jinn_Ku said:
Please, do some research into this topic, or at least think about this topic before attempting to tear down that which you do not understand. I ask you now three painfully simple questions in which I fully expect a public answer to.

I have done plenty of research on the subject and I was under the impression the my original post had a decent amount of information in it. I'm sorry if you don't agree with me, or if I offended you.

1. Is the fetus human?

This really is a key question. Is a fetus capable of independent thought? For the first trimester, I think the answer is a no, but after that, I'm not sure if we have an answer to this question yet, but without independent thought, I don't believe we have a human yet.

2. Is the fetus alive prior to the abortion?

This is another key question. A fetus is not capable if sustaining itself outside of the womb, so its "life" is dependent on another. Would we consider its life to be seperate from the mothers at this point?

3. Is the fetus alive after the abortion?

Well, this is an obvious answer. No.

4. If the fetus is human, alive prior to the abortion, and without life after the abortion, how can you (or any one else) claim the act which ends a human's life is not murder?

You seem to have assumed some answers to the above questions. I can't disagree that some life is lost, but is it a human life? When does it move from being a cluster of cells to being human? This is the key. We do not know this, nor will we ever agree on this distinction, but the verse from Exodus pretty much says that the unborn fetus' life is of lesser importance then the woman's who is carrying it.

EbonNelumbo · Jul 8, 2004

Well...lemme start here. I have posted in a couple other threads about my ideas. Here's the basis. When a man and a woman engage in intercourse,and an egg is fertilized, whether or not it was their choice, that woman no longer has a say about that child. That egg is indeed a child. Just as an infant will someday become a senior citizen. That child is no less valued than that adult. So why is a 'fetus' any less valuable than an infant? Dr Pepper responded and said that rape is extrememly rare when pregnancy is involved. But it still happens. That woman, indeed victimized and hurt, cannot then sin by taking the life of an unborn child. Women who have been raped usually end up feeling like they have lost part of themselves, like part of their soul has been stripped away with their clothes, taking another innocents' life will not justify the wrongs of the rapist.

Furthermore, people make mistakes. Abortion should NOT NOT NOT be legal. I went to hihg school with a girl who literally had 6 abortions by the time she was a sophomore. That is 6 kids who never got to experience life and never had to make decisions. Though they are in heaven it is not right that anyone should have control over another person's life, save God.

Women who need abortions to save their lives are another matter. When a woman comes into the ER hemorraging because she will die if she gives birth, that is another matter. The first resort should NOT be " Hey guys lets tear apart another child" it should be to try their hardest to save both mother and child. If both are said to die because of the birth, then take the mother and save her.

I am so against people talking about all these 'what if' scenarios. "I was raped, I was drunk, I was high, the condom broke, I missed a Pill," Whatever else people use to destroy their kids...I am so tired of it. People should NOT be allowed to kill and go unpunished. Say what you will about me, call me hard hearted, but when it comes down to it I am not.

I can say that I am 100% Pro-Life...but that would be a lie. There are always reservations because nothing in life is 100% except God, and all I am left to say is pray about it. Don't get humans opinions when you have a book full of answers waiting to be read.

vrunca · Jul 8, 2004

Pro-choice??? whose choice is it, certainly not the baby's! It should be pro-murder...or...pro-take away the baby's choice to live...or...pro-God must have made a mistake in making me pregnant...or pro-my Doctor said I should have an abortion for my own life, so I will trust him above God. Jesus told us that blessed is the person who would lay down one's life for a friend...so if a Doctor told me that I would die if I continued this pregnancy and even the baby might die too, would I have an abortion? that's easy, no! How can I say this, would I really do it if truly faced with this delemna? I can say it because it did happen to me. I was told that the chances of me living throught the pregnancy would be less than slim and I would certainly die during child birth. I was also told that the baby probably wouldn't make it and if he did he would be severely brain damaged. It was highly recommended by my doctor and a heart specialist to abort the baby...I was only 10 weeks pregnant at the time. I found a different doctor. In fact I went to 4 different doctors and my first question to the last doctor was are you pro-life or pro-murder? He said pro-Life.

Anyway, my son will be starting his second year of college, he is going to be a teacher and is in excellent physical and mental health. I had very slight problems giving birth, less problems than most women do...so I had two more!

Just wanted to share...God Bless you all!

Jinn_Ku · Jul 8, 2004

Now allow me to clear up something. I did not say, "don't listen to your doctor." I was trying to make the same point (and apperantly failing at it) as Vrunca. Her Dr. said she needed to abort the baby to save her own life. God said otherwise. We, as Christians, should turn to God in times of need, not the opinions of human doctors.
"Sometimes an abortion is required to save a life and I completely support these." Required by who? God or a flawed, human Dr. A Dr. is not in complete conrol of a person's body, God is, and only He knows for sure what the outcome of a pregnancy will be.

Now for my questions. I answered them because the answers should have been obvious.

1. A human male and a human female mate. The result is the fetus. To claim the result of their union is not human would be like claiming if two dogs mated, a racoon would be produced. Therefore, one cannot claim the fetus is in deed human. A doctor could take a DNA sample, study it, and conclude, "Yes, this is human DNA," just as is done at crime scenes.

"but without independent thought, I don't believe we have a human yet."

The definition of human is as follows:
"A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens." It has absolutely nothing to do with ones ability to think independantly. If we follow your definition, that would mean if a man were in a terrible car accident and left brain dead, he would no longer be human. I am sorry if I offend you, but I believe this line of thinking is truly ridiculous and in dire need of rethinking.

2. Needing to be seperate from other living creatures is not a requirement for life. Parasites require a host. Are you attempting to claim parasites are not alive? Speak with any biology teacher and they will tell you otherwise.
Also, a newborn infant, lets say 3 weeks old, cannot live on its own either. It must be cared for, and "is not capable if sustaining itself outside of the womb." So again, by your reasoning, a newborn is not alive either.

3. Yeah, we agree!

"When does it move from being a cluster of cells to being human? This is the key." When the woman's body recognizes it as a forign body. Look into what a woman's body does to a newly fertilized egg, even prior to cell replication. The woman's body begins creating anti-bodies towards the egg because it is viewed as a forign matter different from the woman's cells. This is the same responce to sperm, viruses, and bacteria, or any other invading lifeform that enters her body.

I prefer to site Proverbs 6:16-18.
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,

TheMainException · Jul 8, 2004

Yes, it will be a child when it is born and will go on to have a family and a life and more children

I think that if the woman is at risk, the baby should go, not the woman, the woman can go on and have another child.

It is, but if that woman isn't a Christian, she may be making unchristian choices without even thinking a moment about "hey, would Jesus think this is cool?"

Jinn_Ku · Jul 8, 2004

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

http://www.silentscream.org/

Follow the first link. Look at the pictures. Follow the secon and watch the video. Then, if you claim to be pro-choice, justify it.

Matthew 18:6
"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

If that is the fate of those who cause a little one to stumble, I shudder to think of what awaits those who defend this practice.

prestonw · Jul 9, 2004

Jinn_Ku said:
Follow the first link. Look at the pictures. Follow the secon and watch the video. Then, if you claim to be pro-choice, justify it.

If that is the fate of those who cause a little one to stumble, I shudder to think of what awaits those who defend this practice.

And I can show you pictures of people mangled in horrible car accidents and others burnt horriblely by fireworks. Showing me the worst of the worst is a sensational and detestable way to get support, similar to terrorists showing the beheading a U.S. citizen in order to get a reaction.

I do not defend abortion, I would in almost all cases advise against it. I am very much for making third trimester abortions illegal (of which the pictures in your link all were), because the baby has a decent chance of surviving outside of the womb. But, I will not make the blanket statement that abortion is wrong under all circumstances and I cannot say with any amount of certainty, when or if it is sinful because the Bible is unclear.

Your previous post about a woman eggs being treated as a forgein body shows that the line is less clear. Obviously all of those unfertilized eggs die, but we would not consider that sinful, nor would we consider all of the sperm that lose their lives sinful. When do we consider a fertilized egg more then a cluster of cells, like the egg or the sperm, and consider it a living child?

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