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The 6 Days of Creation: Not neccesarily 24 hours.

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Excellent post Dogmahunter!


Because I view the bible kaleidoscopically: One of the facets I view it through is that it is a coded cypher containing it's own key written by extremely intelligent men over time. Men who were lineage holders of Truth passed down generation after generation.

If I wanted to send information about the universe through time in a primitive culture, I would invent a creation story using the elements/animals they are familiar with and wrap that around universal functions.

I have found the same basic elements in all major creation stories and I have found the mechanism to be scientifically sound. Water vibrated to the point of void cavitation makes light appear. Look up sono-luminescence.


And as far as "reinventing the bible" It says right inside to "rightly divide the word of Truth" and I sure you've heard the phrase "read the bible with spirit" meaning you won't get the full meaning from the surface level. If I really wanted to weed out shallow thinkers, I might even code some offensive things in it for a stumbling block. Through my own spiritual growth, I have gone back to "mysterious" saying in the bible and come away with brand new insights.

I don't "believe" the bible. I navigate it. Why do I think it holds any water at all? Because I have found something amazing through my own works on the origin of the universe. Something that tells me if the bible is 100% allegory, that the story of Jesus is a retelling of universal truths. If the bible is 100% historical, Jesus is a reoccurrence of universal truths.

I do not require it to be either way. The bible, is just one among many maps that I compare and overlay. I don't look at it for the coastlines it describes in primitive language, I look at it to see the changes in man over time.

My faith of Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven is now quite independent of any text.
 
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Teachings are a dime a dozen, where is the objective evidence?

You want evidence of the 5 other space-time bends, containing their own whole realms separate from this one? Consider the navigations of string theorists finding that our 3d space is made of a compacted lattice of 6 closed strings.

How about the ratio of matter to "dark matter" being about 1/6?

How about the fact that you and I and "everything" in this cosmos is made of the lightest density family of matter. Modern science has found there are only 3 families possible...of matter and anti-matter. For a total of 6 possible atomic expressions that are stable by the way the universe works. Look up the standard model of particle generation.


Everything should have been super-symmetric out of the "big bang" right?


Or do you go with the "belief" of academia that the BB magically produced just a tad more matter? Luck us!
 
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BobRyan

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Interesting "theory" now show us a "string".

Meanwhile back to the subject of this thread which is the Bible statement on a literal 7 day week observed by man just as stated by God according in legal code Ex 20:11 and in historic account narrative Gen 2:1-3.

 
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DogmaHunter

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Which is what you merely "believe". You don't know this. You can't test this. You just assume that it is the case.

And again it comes back to what I said: why would you do that? On any other subject, you wouldn't. You'ld simply discard it and move on. You are literally saying here that the bible contains truth, period. And if the evidence shows the bible to be wrong, then we must be understanding the bible wrong, because the bible can't be wrong since you defined it that way and assume it to be correct.

Clearly this is not how one goes about differentiating truth from fiction.

If I wanted to send information about the universe through time in a primitive culture, I would invent a creation story using the elements/animals they are familiar with and wrap that around universal functions.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't at all. Especially not if I was all-knowing, because then I would realise that at some point those people would learn about the world and realise how horribly wrong those texts are. I would realise that they wouldn't be rationally justified to hold on to stories that don't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

Your argument makes no sense. And at bottom, it's again just another thing you merely believe. It's all still part of your effort of rationalising the idea that this bronze-age text can't be incorrect.


I have found the same basic elements in all major creation stories and I have found the mechanism to be scientifically sound. Water vibrated to the point of void cavitation makes light appear. Look up sono-luminescence.

Your word salads employing buzzwords are not interesting.
None of your claims are shaking up the scientific community. With all due respects, you are not a scientist, you have no credentials, you have no published material so what you have to say about these subject is irrelevant.

Your pseudo-scientific ideas are no different then the ideas of those who pretend that homeopathy is a science. Or people like Deepak Chopra who do their outmost best to use the word "quantum" every other sentence, while not having any formal education or knowledge about quantum mechanics at all.

And as far as "reinventing the bible" It says right inside to "rightly divide the word of Truth" and I sure you've heard the phrase "read the bible with spirit" meaning you won't get the full meaning from the surface level.

You say this as if it is a strength of the bible and as if it adds credibility. I consider it a major flaw. If two people can read that book and draw conclusions as extremely different as what we see in this world (like for example AV on the one hand and a guy like Francis Collins on the other), then I consider the book to be completely useless.

But if two people read a physics book about gravity, they won't be walking away with opposite ideas of what gravity is. That's the difference between clarity and obfuscated superstition.

If I really wanted to weed out shallow thinkers, I might even code some offensive things in it for a stumbling block. Through my own spiritual growth, I have gone back to "mysterious" saying in the bible and come away with brand new insights.

Insights that were SO NEW that you are the only one that walks away with it. And that is precisely the problem.

I don't "believe" the bible. I navigate it

Why? What is objectively special about the bible?

Why do I think it holds any water at all? Because I have found something amazing through my own works on the origin of the universe.

Dude.... you have no works on the origins of the universe. I'm sorry, but you don't. Not even remotely.


You can look at it any way you want.

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing objectively special about the bible or any other religious text. And never in history of human kind has a religious explanation turned out to be more accurate then a scientific explanation.

Science is what leads the way and religions are playing an endless game of catch-up while pretending it already knew those new things "all along" by using word games, reïnterpretations and quite a lot of imagination.

You need to understand that almost everything that today is seen as "metaphorical" or "not literal", at one point WAS VERY MUCH seen as being absolutely literal. Science proved it to be wrong and then suddenly it was no longer literal but still somehow, in some way correct anyway.

To me, the entire thing looks and smells like an exercise in futility.

My faith of Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven is now quite independent of any text.

That is patently false. Since that very belief comes from a very specific text. Remove the bible and you no longer have a single source about "christ and his kingdom".
 
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The language to express that belief is from the book. But my living faith is based on a real life encounter. It is no longer mental belief but a living reality and relationship.

"I am the Eternal...I am that which created the Word...I am the Word." Know what that is from? The Egyptian book of the coming forth by Day (wrongly translated as book of the dead) The mummified body of a man or God is called a KRST.

The story of the Son of God is much older that Christianity.
 
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BL2KTN

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The language to express that belief is from the book. But my living faith is based on a real life encounter. It is no longer mental belief but a living reality and relationship.

Okay, so you are in a relationship with the creator of the cosmos. What's my middle name? You figure it out and you'll convert nearly every atheist here. Hint: you're having a one-way conversation and the creator isn't going to tell you anything.

The story of the Son of God is much older that Christianity.

You mean the son of Yahweh. Yahweh isn't the God.
 
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Cearbhall

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I just can't buy a 24 hour 6 day creation, and there is no reason to buy it. It boils down to whether we bear fruit, not whether it's 6 days or ages. I used to get tripped up on these debates, but not anymore. 6 days...lol. Anyway.
I agree. I was taught that even the people who wrote the story didn't think it was literal 24-hour days...seven is a symbolic number that is used throughout the Bible, and "day" is just figurative.
 
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Rubiks

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I simply do not think Genesis is trying to give a scientific account of the creation of the universe. To expect God to somehow "explain" our modern complex scientific theories to generation who happen to be over 90% illiterate is just silly. I believe the main idea behind Genesis 1 is to explain that the Hebrew God, Yahweh, is the creator of everything in the universe.
 
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Cearbhall

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I agree. I don't think that was ever the intention of these authors. It's the messages behind the story that are significant. God made humans in his image, etc. I learned in Catholic school that Genesis gives the "why" and science gives the "how," which I thought was a very good way of looking at it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No, it doesn't. Repeating it won't make it come true. You are making massive assumptions for which you have no rational support. It's all a priori "just believe" stuff.

Are you unfamiliar with what cavitation means? Did you look up sono-luminescence and witness the actual mechanism so it doesn't sound so "buzz word salad" too you?


I don't have to look these things up dude. I know for a fact that you are claiming to have "solved" problems that the elite of the elite of the scientific community wouldn't even dare to hint at. I don't need to know the actual scientific explanation of these terms to know that you are just making wild claims that you are unable to demonstrate / support.

Because if you could actually do that, you'ld be on the cover of every scientific journal. For this reason, I can dissmiss your claims as faith nonsense at face value.

So you can only ever think a new thought or learn something from an appeal to authority?


It's not an appeal to authority. It's an appeal to expertise. There's nothing wrong with listening to what experts of a field have to say to learn about said fields. When I am sick, I go see a doctor. I'm not fallaciously "appealing to authority" when I do that. I just acknowledge the doctor's expertise in medical science and trust him to make me healthy again.

Can you give me a single valid reason why I should accept your ideas instead of those of the scientific consensus? While you literally have no formal education, no credentials, no publications and not even a job that is remotely connected to the scientific undertaking? That's a retorical question off course. I know you can't give me such a reason. Just like you have no reason to take advice of a car mechanic on how to treat a cancer instead of listening to an actual oncologist.




And how do you decide which person's understanding is the correct one?
That question is in reality, already a step to far. Before you ask that question, I'ld want to ask the question of how you know that the text has any kind of reality backing it. People just assume that there is a "correct" interpretation - that the book IS correct "in some way".

What about the option that it is complete nonsense? You seem to glance over that one at every turn. Eventhough it is objectively a LOT more likely then the alternative.


I asked you what was objectively special about the bible. You respond with numerology nonsense? Really? Do you realise that, using the same techniques, we can find the same kind of things in just about any other book? Like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Hamlet, etc?

I feel forced to repeat my question. What is objectively special about the bible?
If numerology nonsense is what is objectively special about the bible, then every single book known to mankind is special in the same way. Which means it isn't special at all, off course.

The language to express that belief is from the book. But my living faith is based on a real life encounter.


I'll go ahead and tell you that the vast majority of theists have such "encounters" and funnily enough, the always "encounter" gods and angels that they already happened to believe in, or that are very present in their immediate environment from a cultural aspect.

For example, someone that has never heared of the bible or abrahamic religion in some remote region in the amazone for example, will never come up with some supernatural encounter with entities named "jezus" or "jawhe" or "gabriel" or "insert-other-biblical-character".

People who "experience" an alien abduction are people that believe such abductions take place.

People who "experience" allah are people who already were muslims or who are culturally surrounded by islam.

People who "experience" christ are people who already were christians or who are culturally surrounded by christianity.

It's called confirmation bias.

It is no longer mental belief but a living reality and relationship.


Without the bible, you would have never heared about any of this and you wouldn't have come up with it either. You'ld have "experiences" and would have simply attributed it to whatever other supernatural entities you happened to believe in already.


Indeed it is. Which, again, is not something that adds to christian credibility. It points to what we have known all along: superstition as a human trait and the recycling of ideas through the ages into new packages.

That's how Islam came to be as well. And Mormonism. And plenty of other religions, including judaism and christianity.
 
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DogmaHunter

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It's indeed the catholic way of looking at it. Today.

It wasn't always like this. In fact, plenty of books and people have been burned by catholic authorities for questioning a literal genesis.

Geology as a field was born out of people who set out to prove that Noah's Flood actually happened. They soon found out that it didn't.

Why is it, do you think, that Darwin caused such a stir back in his day?
 
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Colter

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The retelling of the ancient story of Adam and Eves arrival on a fallen earth (the beast was already evil) dates to the Babylonian captivity period. The 6 day creation came from a comingling of the first 6 days A & E spent surveying their new garden home, not Gods creation of the earth in 6 days. There are other interesting extrapolations that can be made from the fragmented Genesis account.

The authors were the Hebrew priest creating a story for the scattered Israelite audience.
 
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Cearbhall

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It's indeed the catholic way of looking at it. Today.

It wasn't always like this. In fact, plenty of books and people have been burned by catholic authorities for questioning a literal genesis.
Oh, I'm well aware. Years and years of Catholic education and all that...

Did I say something that suggested I didn't know this?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Oh, I'm well aware. Years and years of Catholic education and all that...

Did I say something that suggested I didn't know this?

You spoke of the intention of the authors. But the further back in time we go (the closer we get to those authors), the more literal the interpretations and understanding becomes.

I see no reason to assume that the authors didn't literally believe what they wrote.
 
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Deidre32

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Cool story, bro.

Where's the evidence?


hmmm...a wee bit of a stretch?
 
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bhsmte

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Hey, how is it going with that physics professor reviewing your ideas? I remember you saying you were going to wow them with your ideas.
 
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Linehogs

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Because from a scientific perspective.... there is no evidence for or against a god. Yet as Christians.... we feel... and experience the presence of god in all things.

Let's take it away from religion for a moment. There is a perfectly logical and scientific reason you enjoy music. The waves penetrate your ears and activate chemicals in your brain which stimulate pleasure. But if someone asks you.... what is music? Is that your answer?

As a musician..... no. My answer would be.... Music is beautiful. It is pure emotion in sound.

Another good example of why science and religion aren't even close to the same thing.... and why they cannot be compared.... or contradict one another.... is a story from the Four Noble Truths. A man walks into the forest. He gathers a pile of leaves. He asks the forest. "Is this you?" And the forest replies..."Yes... but only what you can hold in your hand."

I am a Christian. The physical knowledge gained in my lifetimes is exactly that. It's what I can gain and no more. I may pass it down. Another may learn it and further increase his own knowledge. But none of us are more than what we are. We are human. Our physical life cycle is temporary.

Regarding faith vs Science.... if you choose to view one as an alternative for the other... Then you are severely limiting yourself. You will gain some degree of knowledge. But you will lack the spiritual experience. There is a reason religion exists. There is a reason it's been handed down generation after generation and it's appeal never dies. And it's not simply that "Religion offers an explanation for the physical world." That's how someone who tries to pit faith vs science view it. You think they are two equal platforms serving the same purpose. And they are not. The truth is.... Faith exists... because God exists... and human beings have always felt it. The purpose of religion is not to explain the physical universe.... but the spiritual one. Because after all.... Music is a collection of waves which cause chemicals to be released in the brain to effect emotion. AND.... Music is beautiful.

As far as how the Earth was made.... whether it was a collection of dust slowly formed by the force of gravity.... or god made it in a number of 24 hour days. I do not care. I've learned enough in my spiritual walks to not question god. If he says he made the Earth in 6 days... I believe him. It does not matter either way. It does not matter if it's a metaphor for 6 hypothetical cycles spanning millenia. It does not matter if it's been misinterpreted. Jesus often spoke in parables.... why do we have to view the bible as EITHER literal or metaphorical? If you are a spirit filled Christian.... simply ask god. He will tell you. Why place so much emphasis on the the details when the purpose is faith? After all... the bible doesn't say the Earth is flat... but Christians once damned people to hell and murdered them for saying otherwise. We are only human. We can only gain a finite amount of physical knowledge in our lives. Science does a great job explaining how the physical world works. But spirituality explains why.

So why would you limit yourself to one or the other? Why pit them against each other when you clearly miss the point? You are examining religion from a scientific perspective. Once again... that's like describing music in the most mundane textbook fashion. All the while... you are missing the experience. You are turning away from a clear spiritual existence. This has existed since the dawn of time. Religion sprang from faith and faith from spirit. Are you telling me... that you... one blib of a human being in generations of people..... know more than all the rest of the world combined? Do you outright reject the spiritual side of life? Reject the experience? Simply so you can feel as though it's within your grasp? Religion has not spanned the ages serving to explain the physical world. It did not spring from the need to do so. It originated and perpetuated itself out of the need to explain the spiritual world. If you have yet to experience it... or turned away from it... then I am sorry for you.

I suggest you pray for god to reveal himself to you and keep an open mind. Almost every atheist I know is arrogant and cynical. It may be difficult for you to connect with an outside force that you cannot explain. But if you are truly interested in expanding your knowledge and experience during your finite time here.... I suggest you try.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I'm not quite sure, but you seem to be assuming that a spiritual experience can only be obtained through religion, and therefore the absence of religion is the absence of those experiences. I disagree. The word 'spiritual' need not connote the supernatural at all; it can refer to a sense of wonder, awe and beauty. Those feelings are not exclusive to religion, as your own example (music) illustrates quite well.


This seems like a one-sided analysis of religion. At various times religion has provided supernatural explanations for certain phenomena, with limited success. You may argue that this is not the primary purpose of religion (many do argue that point), but you cannot deny that, historically, religion has provided its own answers to questions that have since become scientifically tractable.


How would you respond to someone who sincerely suggests that you pray to the god of another religion to reveal himself to you?
 
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Teachings are a dime a dozen, where is the objective evidence?

Here is the evidence. This is an inkblot.



I see a mothman. What do you see?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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